A look at the dreaded "P" word

Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum

Help Support Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum:

mojoreef

Reef Keeper
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Messages
7,530
Location
Sumner



I thought we could take a little look at Phosphate/Phosphorus and how we see it and deal with it in our tanks. So hopefully I can put some info out their with out screwing it up to bad.

Ok so when we look at Phosphate we have to look at the number of different ways it is in our tanks.

Dissolved inorganic phosphorus
Is biologically available and essential to plants and algae. It is mostly dissolved phosphates. It enters the aquarium from tap water, sometimes from water treatments like pH buffers, it is wasted through the gills and kidneys of animals, it comes on seafood as a wash/enhancer, on food as perservatives, In our salt mixes and is produced in aquariums from organic phosphorus by bacterial and algal phosphatase activity. It is converted to particulate inorganic phosphorus by sorption and precipitation.

Particulate Inorganic Phosphorus
Is mostly not biologically available. It is phosphate associated with phosphate minerals and adsorbed on metal hydroxides and other solids in the aquarium. It enters the aquarium mostly in fish food and animal feces and it can be removed by siphoning out detritus and cleaning filter media. It also enters our tanks by adding argonite sand and LR. It is formed within an aquarium by sorption and precipitation of dissolved inorganic phosphorus.

Dissolved Organic Phosphorus
Is biologically available to bacteria and possibly to algae. It enters the aquarium from animal waste. Bacterial and algal phosphatase activity convert dissolved organic phosphorus to phosphates.

Particulate Organic Phosphorus
Isn't available to plants and algae, but is available to animals. It enters the aquarium as plant detritus, fish food and feces. It can be removed by siphoning and filter cleaning. It is converted to dissolved phosphates by phosphates activity. The phosphatase activity is partly due to detritivores but also to bacteria and possibly algae.

Ok so there are the basic forms that we see. Now lets take a peek on what it does when it gets into our tanks...


Phosphates In Our Tanks

When available P enters the tank, bacteria are the first inline, they immediatly go after it. Now bacteria just can't eat it, they have to create a liquid soup (for lack of a better word) with in this soup they can disolve and store P and use it. When they do this they allow for the growth of more bacteria and thus more of this bacterial bile. It just keeps growing and growing. Now these bacteria and their bile are covering all surfaces of our reef tanks, from rocks to sand to power heads. Anything that may be percipitated out of the water column (say such as kalk and P) will not make it past this biofilm of bacteria and bile. They need it and want it and not much will stop them. So even if its percipitated as a solid it will be broken down with in hours. So this is happening everywhere in our tanks constantly. In the rocks this is also the case. The bacteria continue to mass and to create more of this biomass with in the rock, as it masses it begins to move to the outer surfaces of the rock, we call this bacterial tugur. Once it reaches the surface of the rock it begins to shed off, most folks call it detritus, it is actual bacterial flock (died bacteria, bacterial shells, unused organics, particulate dust, and bacteria fuilds) it is also heavier then water so it will sink once blown free on the surface, if not blown of it will become food for algae (usually). This process is a constant 24/7/365 type of thing.

Ok in sand or similar sediments, the same concept with one BIG exception. With the population growth of the bacteria and the soup it uses and needs in which to live it also pushes out and up. The problem is that our tanks have side walls and a bottom, so when that is hit it pushes in the only direction left...UP. As time goes by this mass of bacteria, soup and all of the above begins to reach the surface. Once there, it will begin to leech into the aquarium. Now this P in all its forms and conditions is still trapped with in its biofilm and not available to our test kits (well some of it is, but only if you draw the sample from the bed). Once on the surface it will become available to higher organisms such as algae. Cyano first then the more common types including hair algae. Since the sand is not a fixed thing this means that it will not all come up at once. First over here, then over there, then all over the damm place and then all over everything.

Sediment has no method for dealing with it, so it doesnt matter how well set up the thing is, it does not work biologically. What its will do through the above mentioned processes is to facilatate it to be removed. Translated= it will bring the available P to the surface where it will be converted to OP by absobtion into the tissue of algae from which you can harvest.

Ok so now we know the enemy has been identified and we know the different forms it takes and we now have an understanding of how it enters the tank, What do we do?



Dealing With Phosphates



What we put in:

Well there is no one stop shop here. P is complex and it comes in various forms so we have to approach the battle on many different fronts in order to keep the balance. The best way to start is to watch our input, what do we add to our tanks that has a high ammount of P.

- Some folks water comes laidened with P, so the use of an RO/DI unit can deal with that.

- Alot of foods we buy can be laidened with P in various forms specially foods that use preservatives (frozen and alike) but flakes and such can also have it. SO best if we take some of the food we add and put it into a small glass, mush it up and then do a P test on it, that will tell us right away.

- Some salt mixes come with alot of P that is readily dissolvable. So perhaps a check on the contents of said salt to make sure the P is in balance.

- Some of the media used in calcium reactors can also put P into your tank. Any medias that have shells in them (ARM I believe?) will introduce P as it melts as when animals create their shell they use P in the process. Also media that are Argonite based and from terristral source will have P bound to them through runoff and so on.

So that is the input side, but its only a part in the overall fight, but even then it will still be produced and will still be in our tanks. So in the next fight, we need to break it down into its various forms and take it from there.



The Stuff thats in their already:

Organic bound up in bacteria and algae are associated with extra food/detritus (as in bacteria are on it and eating it and creating their soup). So if we remove this stuff we remove it in many forms. These forms are:

Particulate Inorganic P (ie: microscopic argonite dust that has attached to organics)

Particulate Organic P (ie the food or waste blob, baterial soup, bacterial floc and so on)

Disolved Organic P (more parts of the soup and enzynes used by bacteria and or P that is in transistion)

Organic P (the little bast*** bacteria and cyanos that are loaded with it) .....by simply syphoning/skimming/socking and whatever from the tank directly prior to it entering into any cycles.

So now we can look at Ferric Oxide (a Popular P absorber). At a certain point in the P cycling and all the other processes listed previously, their are points where the P is inorganic and available. This is where a product such as RowaPhos can come into play. At certain points (say when IP first enters the tank, or it is unbound by bacteria and not used or not needed as their population is in a state of flux) RP can act as an absorbant to remove it. So....just one small part of the over all battle against Phophate saturation.

So anyway if I havent muddied up the water to much perhaps we can talk about it.


Mojo
 
Great article Mike!! Thanks for putting it together! :) Honestly didn't realize there were so many angles to phosphates. I think alot of the time people are so concerned about nitrate levels that they tend to forget they have phosphates to deal with as well which we see comes in so many forms. One good thing though is that some methods for limiting nitrates works hand in hand with limiting phosphates as well like using a macroalgae for nutrient export, water changes using ro/di water etc. :)
 
Krish I would say most folks with the use of sand and live rock (or basically the bacteria within them) have the nitrate control down pretty good. Phosphates on the other hand are a huge part of of every animals/coral/algae/fishes bioform. With out it their would be nothing but letting it go unchecked can be a battle in our tanks. A good way to look at it is that everything wants it and will take it to absorb into their biomass, so if you do tests in your tank and get a reading it means that P is so saturated in your system that the critters cant keep up.

Thanks Bodycology, just trying to let folks know a little more of the behind the scenes type of thing


Mojo
 
Krish I would say most folks with the use of sand and live rock (or basically the bacteria within them) have the nitrate control down pretty good. Phosphates on the other hand are a huge part of of every animals/coral/algae/fishes bioform. With out it their would be nothing but letting it go unchecked can be a battle in our tanks. A good way to look at it is that everything wants it and will take it to absorb into their biomass, so if you do tests in your tank and get a reading it means that P is so saturated in your system that the critters cant keep up.

Thanks Bodycology, just trying to let folks know a little more of the behind the scenes type of thing


Mojo
Exactly! I have been trying to tell people this for years about there live rock being saturated with the dreaded P when they cannot find where the source is. Great write up Mike :clap2:
 
Exactly! I have been trying to tell people this for years about there live rock being saturated with the dreaded P when they cannot find where the source is. Great write up Mike :clap2:
Yea thats a pretty natural process Frank. Phosphate uptake on carbonate minerals does have a multi step process, but it happens in temrs of minutes the most. With corals they also purposly lace their skeliton with it from the begining, and as we all know Lrock is just dead coral. You can see this happen in your tank if you have the misfortune of having a coral die on you, the exposed skeliton usually algaes up immediately.


Krish nope you got it backwards, it is one of the most desired chemicals in you tank. With out it you wouldnt have a tank, the problem is maintianing an equalibrium where the input is equal to the requirements of the things you want (corals/fish/snail and everything like that) to the things you dont want (algaes, diatoms, cyano and so on) if that makes any sence??


Mojo
 
Krish nope you got it backwards, it is one of the most desired chemicals in you tank. With out it you wouldnt have a tank, the problem is maintianing an equalibrium where the input is equal to the requirements of the things you want (corals/fish/snail and everything like that) to the things you dont want (algaes, diatoms, cyano and so on) if that makes any sence??


Mojo


Yes makes sense. Thanks! I adjusted it some. :)
 
Last edited:
Yes, Calcium reactor media is a major source of P for those that use them.
This can be beat though. As Mike mentioned ARM has been reported to contain high phosphates. THis is unfortunate because it is one of the most available reactor medias out there.
On my last setup I had a cup with a small hole in the bottom that I allowed my effluent to drip into. In the cup I kept phosban. It worked very well in removing the phosphates.

What about clam beds Mike and using them in the biological filtration?
 
Hmm never really looked at them in that way Frank? I guess they could be viewed in the same way as any biological form. They do filter particulate matter, they do absorb P and N naturally through their tissue and I guess they also (like any shelled critter) fix P into their shell matrix?? what exactly were you looking at Frank?

Mojo
 
Well, when I had the T.gigas and 4 other clams in my reef it seemed most of my phosphate problems went away. I always contributed this to the 14" gigas.
I was thinking instead of a refugium stuff with cheato how about stuffed full of clams?
 
Well, when I had the T.gigas and 4 other clams in my reef it seemed most of my phosphate problems went away. I always contributed this to the 14" gigas.
I was thinking instead of a refugium stuff with cheato how about stuffed full of clams?

Never knew clams used phosphates for growth. Always thought it was just nitrates they used. See learn something new again. :)
 
Never knew clams used phosphates for growth. Always thought it was just nitrates they used. See learn something new again.

Well they do use Nitrogen products Krish. You have to remember most animals take advantage of most things available to them in the ecosystem and evalution has made them pretty good at it. In regards to N they use it mainly in the production of amino acids which helps in Photosynthesis and carbon usage. P is used for a few things in the clams metabolism and it is also used by its Zoox also. But to be honest we are talking very small amounts, so if that was going to be used for P filtration you would need a hell of a lot.


Mojo
 
Hey Mike....long time no see....I drive by your place every few months on my way up to Anacortes to dive. I'll have to stop by one of these days to see what you're up to.

As for N & P.....my situation is a little different than most since I run a 400 gal coldwater tank these days. There is no N & P reduction value from my rocks and sand since I use the native granite/basalt rocks and substrate. This.....coupled with the 55 F temp....makes keeping N & P under control quite the challenge. I use two very large Nitrate reactors (each rated for 1300 gals) and lots of GFO to control those two parameters. Since everything in my tank is non-photosynthetic, I must feed massive amounts several times a day via an automated feeding system. Without my reactors (fed with vodka), my Nitrate will reach over a 100ppm within two weeks. With my reactors, my NO3 stays under 2ppm.....and P under .08 through GFO.

YouTube - 400 gal temperate reef
 
Ahh Steve its great to see you still in the hobby, I had heard your reef tank was no longer up. I new you caught the cold water fever when you set up those two smaller versions prior, lol. Its funny some many folks think that tropical reefs can be beautiful, your tank shows just how sweet a cold water set up can be!!

Yea your in a different world thier with colder/deeper water reef then most of us. The one good thing about non-photosynthetic critters is that they have so much tissue that binding those products to their matrix makes takes care of a lot of it. Cold water reefs are the polar opposite of tropical reefs in regards to nutrient rich, tropical reefs are known for their nutirent deficient where as cold water are just loaded with nutrients and rich in bio divercity with planktons (both plant and animal) so yea I can imagine.

In your case your flow is going to be a big one (keeping the fod/detritu suspended) and it looks like you go that one covered well. The GFO will help when the Phosphate and N are in a disolved form but not much other then that. I guess you got to keep a watchfull eye on what you feed them with. Are you making your own food?

great looking system

Mike
 
I mostly feed the Reef Nutrition line of foods through an automated feeding system.

At feeding time, I have an automated three-way ball valve that redirects the return flow right back to the sump. This way, the display tank circulates within itself and water doesn't go through the filtration.

Food is then fed automatically through a dosing pump inside the refrigerator along with the foods. The food stays concentrated in the display tank for an hour....after which....the three-way ball value activates again and resumes normal operation.

I also manually add mysis, scallop, and cyclopese once a day.

Most of my critters use the smaller particulate foods.

refrigerator-1.jpg
 
Yea thats top line stuff Steve. You always did your reefs right and I see that has not changed!! I want a fridge for my tank to, lol

great stuff

Mike
 
I have to 100% agree with Mojo! Your tanks Steve have always been beautiful and so nicely put together. That big one you had that the back of is stuck out into what looked like your garage was one of my all time favorite tanks!! Loved it!!!!!!!!! Even have it bookmarked http://www.oregonreef.com/ :p Also, thanks for posting that video. Amazing tank! :)

Where coldwater tanks are concerned now, isn't it much harder to come across algae issues when temperature is kept in these lower ranges?? I believe I've read that somewhere here...You go cold and never have to deal with nuicance algae. Can that be confirmed? :)
 
Great video Steve! If you told me i was watching a video of the ocean floor i would have believed it :)
Nice feeding setup. I am surprised Mike does not have a refrigerator for his tank though LOL! :)
 
Back
Top