Acquiring a fish from LFS procedure questions

[csababubbles]

Lee, I read your stickies in regard to what to look for when acquiring a new fish from the LFS. I have a question related to this. I have a deposit on a fish (3.5" arothron puffer) that arrived at the LFS 5 days ago. He is in a 40 breeder along with a few smaller fish and a 12" angel. They run copper in their tanks, SG is 1.017, ph is 8.2, and temp is 82-84. The puffer looks healthy EXCEPT I noticed some ich spots on his fin.

Questions:
I am adjusting my QT to the LFS' SG, ph, and temp. Is it ok that I am not running copper? Or should I use copper so their is less of a shock for him during acclimation and then slowly lower it to nonexistant? How long before I can begin the hyposalinity treatment for his ick after I bring him home? The QT is a 55 gallon. Should I use all new water in it, or mix a certain percentage of my display tank's water with new water?

I am nervous that the big angel might cause him a lot of stress. Do you think I should ask the LFS to take out one of the fish? If they say no will it still be ok? How long should I wait before I take him home? They said they will hold it for a week but I am sure I can ask nicely and extend that. Do I wait till the ick spots are gone? What if they are still there after a week or two and they want me to decide whether I want my deposit back or take the fish?

As for deworming, I can do it at the same time as the hyposalinity right? Even thought I have read everything I could find about deworming I am still confused as how to use prazipro. Instruction say use it as a bath but everything I have read elsewhere says that ingestion is much better then a bath. Could I soak the food in prazipro and feed it like that if he accepts it? Instructions say nothing about soaking the food in it. Do you happen to know the amount to soak and how often to give it to him?

Thank you for any help you can offer me. It will be most appreciated.

 

[leebca]

Good questions. If I miss any, just point it out. . .

It is the addition of copper that shocks the fish. The other way is okay.

You can begin hypo the day after the fish enters the QT.

Beginning water is your option. It can be old or new. If there is a chance there are other diseases in the display system (i.e., you haven't been quarantining all fishes), then best to begin with newly made up water.

I don't think the Angel will be a problem. Unless you actually see bad interaction between them, then point it out to the LFS and make your request that they be separated.

There is obviously disease in the LFS system. If this tank is connected to other tanks and fishes are coming and going, then technically the fish could never be totally cured. That is, the LFS system is infected on a more or less continual basis. If the fish meets all the other requirements in the post except for the signs of Marine Ich, I'd go ahead and bring it home. Just so you know what you are in for! Remember -- I said the fish must meet all the other requirements in that post.

Praziquantel is sold in bulk for pond use. Pond use is to put it into the water for freshwater fishes. So most instructions on that label will be bath instructions Our hobby doesn't use it like that. It is best administered to each fish through their food. The med goes to where the worms are living. This, I think you can see, isn't practical for large ponds. I think they'd do the same if they could.

I seem to recollect putting the de-worming instructions in this post: De-worming. I didn't make it a sticky, but it is found through the sticky post of the Table of Contents. Take a look at it and if you still have questions, I'll be happy to answer.

 

[csababubbles]

Awesome thanks so much!

Last question, should I take the fish home this weekend and start him on his nice, stress-free QT, or do I let him stay at the LFS another week past that so that I can make sure he is acclimating to captive life and let the LFS take the loss if he dies? seems he would be under a lot of stress with all the other fsh in his tank, the customers walking around and pointing, nets going in and out of the tank, etc. versus being in my 55 QT by himself and getting better care? You think its better to let him rest up at the LFS for now since he must have gone through hell coming from the wild with all those transfers and numerous acclimations and such. Little confused here because in your stickie you state that the fish should be at the LFS for at least two weeks. So which do you suggest?

 

[leebca]

The 2 weeks is a safety net to allow the fish to acclimate, eat and give you (the potential new owner) a chance to evaluate the fish. If the fish currently evaluates okay in all the other aspects on the list, is eating, alert, healthy other than the Marine Ich AND you've actually seen it eating then I think it would be okay. Just be sure it isn't just nibbling at its food, but actually eating heartily and shows no signs of acclimation problems.

Do you know where/what waters the fish was collected from? I don't recall you mentioned the species of this fish. With this info AND it has passed your inspection (see above) then I may be able to better make a recommendation.

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

Follow up question about de-worming. One of the LFS I visited says he deworms fishes by using unchelated copper to level of 160ppm, then lets it dissipate to zero.

Is this an acceptable way of deworming a fish. My gut reaction is No, but also didnt have the heart to question the owner on this.

Please comment.
Kirk

 

[NC2WA]

csababubbles,

Do you plan on placing this fish in your own QT after it has been in the LFS for 2 wks OR is this fish going straight into your display tank ??

 

[leebca]

I've not heard of such a thing before, Kirk. 160 ppm of unchelated copper seems to be a dangerous level, however I don't have my reference with me right now regarding treatments with unchelated copper. It's been so long since I used that. . .

I don't see how the copper would penetrate into the intestinal track. Copper binds to tissue and organs fairly quickly -- much like heavy metals -- making fish flesh, for instance, dangerous for human consumption. The other way in is a fish swallowing water, but the copper there would not get into the intestinal track since the swallowed water is cleaned of ions before the intestines. So I can't imagine the mechanism.

You could ask where the LFS got such information? A reference or ?

 

[csababubbles]

Lee, the fish is a Solomon Island "dalmation colored" Arothron nigropunctatus. I asked them to feed last night and the three other tangs in the tank (including a PBT) and the large angel got all the food quickly. They put more in but the puffer was BARELY nibbling. I told the owner that even though the other fish were not being aggressive, their aggressive feeding matter was preventing the puffer from getting any food, being a slow delicate eater. He promised that he would move him to a calmer more docile tank. Was this an OK request? I was afraid the act of catching him and moving him would be a lot of unnecessary stress but I hoped that moving him would get him on the road to eating. Besides the ick, every item on the checklist was checked off. I think he was just a little freaked out with all the fast moving fish going after the food. It looked like it was a mixture of algaes, brine, and krill.

 

[csababubbles]

csababubbles,

Do you plan on placing this fish in your own QT after it has been in the LFS for 2 wks OR is this fish going straight into your display tank ??

Absolutely QT. Got a 55 ready for him when he comes home. I even QT'ed cheato for 6 weeks when I got it a few months ago for my refugium. None of my 6 display tanks has gotten disease in it so far (knock on wood). Gotta thank lee for hammering it into our heads!

 

[AquaKnight]

I have a very similar question, just got a 55 too. What about for like a specimen just like this, where the LFS or in my case, an online retailer, holds for the fish for a minimum of two-weeks then puts the fish for sale; would it be wiser to set up a 'temporary tank' rather then a quarantine tank? A skimmer instead of a sponge filter and probably a phosphate remover? Where the chances of diease are very slim and setting something up with a sponge filter and requiring 35% bi-daily wouldn't be necessary? Then if disease does occur, he would be moved to a smaller, more controllable tank?

 

[csababubbles]

I assume you are referring to a "what you see what you get" sort of retailer, Divers Den @ LA as an example. You mentioned yourself, they hold it for two weeks. Disease often takes a longer time to show itself. So maybe the fish appears healthy when the vendor ships it, but the stress from the shipping and re-acclimation to your water affects their immune system so some disease may become evident only after some time in your home system. That's why every knowledgeable aquarist will QT every single thing that goes in their display. The "holding tank" your describing would not work at all for several reasons. I'll explain. You say your taking away the filter and replacing it with a skimmer. A skimmer will not be able to convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrate so the fish will be living in a toxic environment. You still need some sort of biological filter. If your thinking "how about live rock?" then thats not a good thing either. What if the fish develops ick, now you have to treat with copper or hyposalinity, both of which will kill the live rock. Even if you remove the live rock if you decide to treat, now that live rock will be contaminated and you have to QT it separately now, adding to your workload. Finally, there would be no point in a phosphate remover. You are not concerned with the amount of algae that could occur in a QT because it will be cleaned once the fish is moved to the display. Hope this helps clear things up. Lee has a stickie on QT procedures and I recommend you follow it very closely as every point he makes has very good logistics and experience behind it.

 

[AquaKnight]

Yep, I referring to the WYSIWYG retailers. DD hold their fish for a minimum of two weeks, not uncommonly for over a month, though that maybe somewhat of marketing hype. You're right about the shipping stress, esp. on a cross country trip from Cali to Orlando.

Ouch, yea, I did completely overlook the bio-conversion. I suppose if I still put in a sponge filter and/or a large biowheel and used a skimmer, would it lengthening the water change schedule? A 55gal would be about the smallest I would fell comfortable putting a large Banana Wrasse and Harlequin Tusk (seperate times obviously). 35% bi-daily WC's on that is going to start mount up and looking for alternatives...

 

[csababubbles]

I think the 35% water change may only need to be done for a little while during the hyposalinity treatment because the bacteria do not do so well when you convert to the lower salinity and therefore you need to test for ammonia/nitrite on a daily basis to make sure its not toxic for the fish. Regardless, a 150 gallon of salt costs ~$30 shipped and the water will only be 1.009 salinity so your not really using that much salt remember! Just double check the stickies to make sure my advice is correct.

 

[AquaKnight]

The sticky mentions 50% per week, though I thoroughly remember 35% every other day for some reason. But, even then, it's a general recommendation for a multitude of scenarios. Close monitoring would be the only accurate way I guess.

Hrm, maybe an extra, extra, large sponge filter and biowheel could work. The sticky seems more for fish that are already diseased, not just monitoring most likely heathly fish.

 

[Snowboarda42]

The QT sticky says 50% a week, the Copper sticky says 35% a week. I usually do 50% in either, since it much easier. I use a 10G, and add 1/2 the dose to my 5G bucket of fresh salt water and check the next day.

 

[AquaKnight]

If I were using 10gals, I would be gravy as well, but I don't think using a 10gal for a 5" banana wrasse or a 5 1/2" H. Tusk would work very well. The 55 is a bit more of a challenge, esp when you're away at work from 8am-6pm (even if I have time to play on the internet, but away from the tanks). I think a daily 5gal change would add up to about 63% change for the week. Could do 5gal every other day for 31.5% weekly change at regular salinity. I suppose I could look into storage tanks with automation but trying to avoid unnecessary costs.

 

[leebca]

csababubbles,

I think your suggestion to the LFS is a good one. See if it is eating. Puffers sometimes just go on a hunger strike, but starting off with one eating will be much easier.

These Puffes are IMHO a very nice fish. They can be very personable. Be patient and get the right one. It isn't the end of the world if this doesn't work out for you.

 

[csababubbles]

Well I went back to the LFS tonight to check up on him. They did indeed move him over to another tank that was more peaceful. I asked them to feed him and right away he was eating like a champ. Very happy over here!

 

[csababubbles]

little update here:

went and saw the puffer a few more times, eating very well and Lee's checklist all checked out except the ick spots on his fins. Took him home on Saturday afternoon. The LFS told me many times (I asked the first time I went to see the puffer, I asked again over the phone a few days later, and asked again before I left to pick him up, and even asked when I was there picking him up) that their salinity was 1.017 so thats what I set up the QT for. Well I get home, put him in a 5 gallon bucket and start drip acclimating. I always check salinity and ph of the bag water and guess what? Salinity was 1.021! So I am in a mad rush to empty as much water as I can from the 55 gallon QT and replace it with water from my other display tank so bring the salinity up. ln this time the poor guy is sitting in a bucket and his water temp is dropping from 76 slowly down and it hit 72.5 before I was able to start dripping correct salinity water. dammit last time I ever deal with this LFS. LFS was Absolutely Fish in Clifton NJ.

anyways, I finish the dripping process (double water, pour out half, repeat twice) and I decide to skip the freshwater dip because I feel its been too much stress on the fish with the temp change and sitting in a bucket for quite a while with his own waste. So I put him directly in the QT.

So today is Monday and I will begin lowering his salinity over the next couple of days to 1.009 to get rid of the ick. The biological filter will be effect by this low salinity so I got to keep up with the water changes right? Can I deworm while the water is at 1.009 or do I wait until its back up to normal? Or should I deworm first and then hypo? since I skipped the freshwater dip, is it too late now or should I still do it? puffers are ok to freshwater dip right?

 

[AquaKnight]

I wouldn't hold too much of a grudge against the LFS, they seems to help you out as much as possible, for all they know, their refractometer could be reading 1.017. They did all more then 95% of the LFS's here in Florida would and we have a lot.