Advice needed for LARGE tank upgrade

[nsamouroux]

Alrighty, the trigger has been pulled and we're upgrading our main aquarium from a 100 gallon display to a 360 gallon display The new tank will be ready this coming weekend, so I've got 6 days to plan this out and get things ready. We will spend another week or so after the tank arrives purchasing piping, pumps, and other misc odds and ends to get this set up the right way the first time. Fish and corals will likely be distributed to our 55 and 30 gallon aquariums during the breakdown process of our 100 gallon, while the rock, sand, etc go into rubbermaid tubs with a skimmer and Koralia 3 powerheads for circulation.

My primary dilemma is in dealing with water... Does anyone have any ideas for storing roughly 300 gallons of RO/DI water? Since we'll be breaking down our 100-gallon tank and replacing it with the 360 gallon all in the same day, we need some way of storing enough water to almost instantly fill the tank once it's set up. In the event that our 100gpd RO/DI unit can't be used (not enough storage vats at our townhouse), I'm prepared to purchase 360-ish gallons of water from the Seattle Aquarium, but still need to figure out a way to transport it all... Does anyone have sealable water transport / storage vats that they're willing to loan out for a time?

Any other tips or suggestions are welcome at this point!

 

[Scooterman]

Do you have to swap tanks right away?

Hopefully you can get locals to loan you some storage tanks If you have to swap it all at once, that is a lot of water to deal with, so you'll need a large storage tank regardless so consider getting a couple large storage tanks or rubber made containers you can maybe just store in the attic orf someplace.

 

[Myteemouse]

Dude I have a 125 acyrlic you can use for a week or two
I'ts gonna be my sump and it's never had saltwater in it but if you need it for a week or so your welcom to use it
it's 3/8" acrylic so I 'm not gonna use it as my display

 

[nsamouroux]

Thanks for the offer Mytee! Might have to take you up on that depending on how I handle the water situation . We certainly don't have to do the tank swap right away, I just targeted the 2 weekends from now date because I believe I can get everything together by that time, even if I have to buy a large storage vat or two to hold water from our RO/DI. I'm still not sure if I want to use our filter unit to fill containers 24x7 until the water is finished or if it would be easier to load up a truck with containers that could be sealed and run down to the Seattle Aquarium since they sell filtered sea water that would certainly work and I wouldn't have large tubs all over the townhouse for a week or two

Be warned, the following section will be quite drawn out and some rambling will probably ensue. Proceed at your own risk!

So far on my "To-Do" list:

-Decide if we want to put the tank on the main / bottom floor of the townhouse or in the garage (more on this below)
-Pick up the tank / stand in Oregon (Yay! Road trip!)
-Purchase a set of hole saws to drill a closed-loop setup (might just take the tank to A.R.S.A. to have it drilled?)
-Purchase schedule 80 bulkheads in proper sizes from McLendons
-Diagram and purchase PVC pipe for durso pipes, drains, and closed loop. Also from McLendons
-Purchase wood (or other material) and sheathe the steel stand and build matching canopy for halides
-Trick wifey into letting me get a Dremel tool (I love these things!)
-Purchase a larger skimmer, either DIY, used, or new (downdraft skimmer on our 100-gallon won't filter this beast! :badgrin


I'm sure there's lots of little things I'm forgetting or not solidly planning at this point, but the primary order of business is to decide where the heck I'm going to put this monster... We're in a townhouse (10 units side-by-side built in sections of 3), with a very minimal crawlspace (if any!), and 2"x8"x15' or so floor joists set the usual 16" apart. If we place this tank where our 100-gallon currently sits, the tank would be sitting against a load-bearing wall and sitting perpendicular to and spanning 6 floor joists. I'm figuring the weight of this tank when fully set up (not counting 60-80 gallons of sump) to be 4500 lbs with a 96"x36" footprint welded steel stand. The base surface area is 24ft^2 spanning 6 joists. Given those dimensions / values:

4500 lbs over 6 joists = 750 lbs per floor joist
Weight load (4500 lbs on 24 ft^2 base) = 187.5 lbs per ft^2

Our current 100-gallon tank with 60"x18" footprint worked out the same way is:

2000 lbs over 3 joists = 667 lbs per floor joist
Weight load (2000 lbs on 7.5 ft^2 base) = 267 lbs per ft^2

Given these numbers, the larger tank would add roughly 100 lbs of dead weight load per floor joist, but pressure would be roughly 100 lbs per square foot less due to the larger surface area of the base. I've spoken with a family member who has spent roughly 30 years as a contractor / builder who believes the tank will be fine without additional floor support posts, but am waiting to hear back from another family member who is an architect. I'm encouraged by the fact that the tank has been set up for 2 years at it's current location in a bedroom with no additional floor support against an ourside load bearing wall. In the event that we can't put this tank inside the townhouse without extra floor supports (not allowed by landlord), we have a garage that I'll set the thing up in. One way or the other, we *will* set up this monstrosity! If it has to stay set up in a garage for a year or two until we move into a house, so be it! :badgrin:

Nathan

 

[slim_jim989]

wow that does sound like a beast. And i have a suggestion for the water thing but you would need a lot of home depot orange 5 gal buckets. when there closed all the way they never leak, i have a couple. I would also make sure that the local LFS will be able to accomadate your high gal water demand lol. Hopefully they can spare that much for ya. but good luck.

 

[roscoe]

Here is a guy on CL that can haul and deliver up to 800g or more of saltwater to your door! here is the link http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/for/997992121.html. I hope that will make your tank swap easier!

 

[nsamouroux]

Here is a guy on CL that can haul and deliver up to 800g or more of saltwater to your door! here is the link http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/for/997992121.html. I hope that will make your tank swap easier!

Thanks! I've been trying to find that guy's craigslist posting but wasn't able to. I had seen it a few weeks ago but didn't need it at that point My other two options right now is to buy four or five food-grade storage barrels (roughly 55 gallons each) at a farm supply store and run down to the Seattle Aquarium, or fill them from our own RO/DI unit over the course of the next two weeks. We'd have to put them outside if we went the second route, which would be a pain in the butt! I'll give that guy a call and find out what his rates are, might be worth it to avoid the hassle of buying barrels / water totes.

The aquarium is most definitely a beast! :lol: 8' long, 3' front to back, 2' tall; PLENTY of room for our tangs to swim around in! It's a Tenecor acrylic tank that has been used for freshwater for two years now and is still in almost perfect shape. The person I'm buying it from has used HOB overflows to the dual sumps since he didn't want to have it drilled. I'm going to have to drill at least two 1.5" bulkheads (one in each corner) for durso standpipes and put in surface skimming overflow boxes around them, and then drill either one large drain in the bottom (towards the back of the bottom panel in the center - 2" bulkhead?) or two smaller 1" or 1.5" drains plumbed together to feed a closed-loop pump that will push water to four 3/4" or 1/2" lockline or PVC "jets" at the front bottom of the tank. I'm planning on using at least a 1600gph pump for this closed loop and the tank comes with a Mag 12 for the sump return. I'll be moving the koralia 3 powerheads from our tank to this one, but I don't think the flow will be anywhere near enough for SPS corals unless they're in specific high-flow areas of the tank.

 

[slim_jim989]

sounds like you have most planned out there. I would go with 3/4 lockline since u have a big tank and are wanting sps.

 

[nsamouroux]

sounds like you have most planned out there. I would go with 3/4 lockline since u have a big tank and are wanting sps.

SPS isn't our main focus with this tank, but I'd like to be able to have some types at least . Do you think 3/4" lockline work better for the output "jets" of the closed loop with only a 1600 to 2000gph pump? Most pumps I'm seeing in the 1600-2400gph range (Mags, Iwaki, etc) are all 1" inlet / outlet, so I'd have to use a 1" or 1.5" bulkhead with reducer at the intake to feed the pump, which would only allows about 1400 gph flow through it (not factoring in pump intake suction). I was going to drill four 3/4" bulkheads at the front of the tank, one every two feet, and I wasn't sure if the single pump could handle the number of jets I planned on using if I went above 1/2" lockline for the final piece of plumbing. I had figured on a 3/4" PVC riser from each bulkhead about 2" or 3" tall (to allow for substrate) and terminating in a Y-splitter which would have a 1/2" lockline jet on each tee of the split. Hopefully this arrangement would provide enough direct flow (and flexibility for changing needs) to the front of the rockwork to grow some SPS down the road.

Perhaps it would be better in the end to use two smaller pumps (each running two return bulkheads) than to try and use one large pump to run all of it? Heat generation and price were my main factors in the plan of using the one larger pump to run the closed loop, but I want to make sure this thing is done right the first time to avoid upgrades later on :lol:

 

[slim_jim989]

yeah i would run two different pumps for that many outlets and it is smart to do it right the first time. I know i will be once i move into my own house lol. I am having to try and fix the setup i have because it was a up and running system already. But the guy used two different types of canister filters plus he had a in line water heater just everything is going crazy lol. So im adding a sump and i already built my CL system but need a bigger pump. O yeah dont forget that the gph will go down for how ever many feet of pvc ur pushing up.

 

[nsamouroux]

I've found that pain is an excellent motivator to do things right the first time :badgrin:. I've had to tear apart too many freshwater setups to fix something to risk a similar issue with this large tank. I'll re-work some of my PVC mapping to accomodate two smaller pumps (perhaps 1000gph each) for the closed loop. I hadn't really factored in head pressure due to pipe length, because the closed loop will hug the bottom of the tank and the longest run would be 4' of horizontal PVC from the center where the pump will be. In that orientation, the only real head pressure would come from 45 or 90 degree bends and the risers / jets themselves. Using two smaller pumps as you suggested would allow me to shorten that horizontal run to about 2' in either direction since each pump will only be running two bulkheads. I'm trying to avoid the need for a chiller on this beast (haven't used one on any of our other tanks), so hopefully two small pumps won't increase heat much more than one large one.

Of course this means that I'll have to put in two 1" bulkheads (one on each side) rather than one to feed the pumps, but I suppose that's just part of the package. I appreciate the suggestion! That sort of feedback is the reason I posted this in the first place; I figured there's quite a few people on here to use as a sounding board for my half-baked plans

 

[slim_jim989]

haha yeah ive used this forums alot in my quest to fix my tank. And just look at the manufacturs specs for gph it will tell u at 0 feet 1,2,3,4 feet and so on so u can go from there and i dont think you will run into a heat problem with that much water in ur tank and sump.

 

[danno14]

Nathan- Since I didn't come through for you, I feel even more obligated....

I have 3 55 gallon barrels with lids, along with a few buddys that do too. You would be welcome to borrow them if it works out that you need to. Best, D

 

[nsamouroux]

Nathan- Since I didn't come through for you, I feel even more obligated....

I have 3 55 gallon barrels with lids, along with a few buddys that do too. You would be welcome to borrow them if it works out that you need to. Best, D

No worries on that Dan! I just ended up finding something a bit closer to me at the last minute, and the light ballast for our smallest tank wasn't really a high priority relative to the current project I'm waiting on a call back from the Traveling Water Truck Guy that Roscoe mentioned to see what he charges for delivery of 300 gallons. Depending on if I hear back from him or not and his prices I'd certainly like to use a few barrels to fill with our own RO/DI. Thank you very much for the offer! I'll PM you later today or tomorrow once I get the water situation ironed out a bit better to let you know either way. I didn't want to use Mytee's sump for water storage, because we've got a 3-year-old and a 150lb malamute. I wouldn't want to risk scratching or otherwise wrecking his new sump!

 

[danno14]

Sounds good. If you end up needing to use them to "haul in a truck", they are avail for that as well. Good luck, and have fun w/your planning

D

 

[trido]

but I want to make sure this thing is done right the first time

If thats the case you definately dont want to use any mag pumps for your CL system.
AS much as Tangs like room to swim, they also like alot of current. My sailfin has recently started swimming directly in front of a tunze nano for exercise. Id recommend getting a sequence pump for the CL, or scrap it altogether and get a couple vortechs or tunzes for flow.

 

[nsamouroux]

If thats the case you definately dont want to use any mag pumps for your CL system.
AS much as Tangs like room to swim, they also like alot of current. My sailfin has recently started swimming directly in front of a tunze nano for exercise. Id recommend getting a sequence pump for the CL, or scrap it altogether and get a couple vortechs or tunzes for flow.

So far the only mag pump is the Mag 12 which is handling the sump return. Do you suggest not using the Mags because of the poor pressure ratings? Their performance certainly drops off with anything more than an 8' head, but I wasn't thinking that a closed loop system would have that much back pressure. Regardless, I was looking at some iwaki / Pan world pumps for the closed loop that various people have posted in the Equipment Classifieds section here, although it seems that a 3000gph dart might be available as well.

Going with a pump that large would probably mean that I'd be back to my original idea of running all four return bulkheads on the CL from a single large pump rather than two 1000+gph units... So many options! I want to have certain areas of the tank be relatively calm for soft corals, anemones, etc, but still need high flow in other areas in case we want to put in SPS corals. My working plan right now is to direct the majority of the flow from the bottom front of the tank upwards against the rockwork in order to flush detritus upwards into the corner overflows and to keep stuff suspended longer and to add surface turbulence. There will probably be a few Koralia powerheads in undecided locations, but I'll have to wait 'till I get the rest plotted out.

 

[danno14]

The Dart is ideally suited for a closed loop... where the head pressure is minimal (pm me for an explanation if you need it), and the gph/energy cost will give you a great bang for the $$. Iwaki and Panworld are great pumps but tend not to be as energy efficient. (running an MD100 on my skimmer.... I feel it!). One Dart on a CL should be plenty for what you hope to acheive. With two return bulkheads, of which I would use 2" minimum.

I have in the past/would not be inclined to use a mag pump in non-sumberged applications. Too many incidents of leakage. Consider running some flow down the back of the tank, flushing the detritus out and forward into suspension. Works great in my tank!
D

 

[seawandrr]

For a 360 Gallon tank, a dart is the minimum I'd be looking at (for a non SPS tank, just to provide flow)

I've got a Snapper Return, and a Dart on the CL, on my 135, and it's not nearly enough flow.

A Barracuda or Hammerhead would be more appropriate for that size tank, and you can always valve them back a bit if necessary (and lower the watt draw)

Also, another direction a lot of people go, is 2 darts on a closed loop. This is about the same watt draw as a Hammerhead, but is a bit more flow. And they valve back to lower wattage draw much easier then a hammerhead does.

The other thing I haven't seen you mention yet is humidity control. How are you going to pull water out of the air in your townhouse?

I've got almost 500 gallons running in the house between our 3 systems, and it takes two 70liter/day dehumidifiers running 70% of the time to keep the house below 65% humidity.

 

[nsamouroux]

Humidity will be one main concern. Right now with our 100-gallon and 55-gallon tanks, I have to cover all openings with acrylic panels to minimize evaporation from those areas. I've got the sump and refugium open, with a drip-tray and fans blowing full time on both so that evaporation only occurs there. We get some fogging / condensation on our windows if it's cold out, but not too bad as-is.

You're correct about the larger tank being another matter entirely. I hadn't even considered evaporation / humidity, and this will become a BIG issue that may not be surmountable in our current townhouse... We're also in the midst of purchasing a home, so I may have to push back my project timeline significantly until after we move into a house that we own so that I can fully and properly reinforce the floor and set up ducts / fans to vent the air above the tank somewhere outdoors...

This tank setup has been a goal of ours for some time, but I don't want to risk screwing it up by trying to rush things. As of right now, from talking to various people (landlord, architect, contractor, and people experienced with large tanks in their homes) it will be better for us to wait until after we're moved in the next few months to set up this beast. There's just too many liabilities or potential issues with a tank this size in a rental, so we'll pick up the tank as planned but then store it in our garage until after we purchase a house.

Thank you all for your feedback and input! It's tough to sit and wait since we're only days away from having this tank, but it'll be best in the long run to take my time and plan it all out