Algae Problem

[Zenoah1439]

Hey All,

I have a saltwater tank thats been running for about 3-4 months now. It seems to be having a problem with the green algae (I think its actually "green hair algae"). The current setup just has a 40g breeder, HOB filter, about 40-50lb of live rock. I don't currently have a sump, i'll get to the reasons why in a bit. My cleanup crew consists of a blood shrimp, 3 hermits, 4 trochus snails, and 2 turbo snails. I also do water changes every week, clean the live rock every week, and clean the sand bed every weed. The water source is a RO/DI system. I only have 1 fish (coral beauty) and do minimal feedings yet my nitrate levels remain in the high teens which i believe is what is feeding the algae.

All the other algae seems to be taken care of except the green, which leads me to believe i don't have anything in my crew that eats the green algae? I understand that the addition of a sump and macro algae will solve this problem, however, I need to build a new stand, build a sump, and get a weir overflow setup before getting my sump running. In case you're wondering, I need the new stand built because my tank sits in the middle of my room and i HATE the look of the tubes running all over. So I'm building the new stand to hide the sump tubes.

My question is this, is there some algae eaters (like some sort of snail, crab, etc) available that can help clean up my green algae problem for a short time until i have my stand and sump built and running? the stand is the next thing on my priority list, but in all honest I doublt the sump will be up before the end of this year and would like a temporary "eater" of the algae if possible to clean things up until the sump is running. Is this possible, or do i just have to deal with it till the sump is going?

They would ultimately be brought back to the store unless the new algae eaters get along with coral as a coral setup is my ultimate goal. I understand that i can't do the coral till i have the sump and algae problem under control though.

Any ideas on things i could change to reduce the nitrates and ultimately reduce the green algae? (aside from a sump, which i promise will be running sooner than later.)

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I'm new to saltwater and am learning (as rapidly as possible) as i go

 

[Peppie]

I am no expert by no means, but my 2 cents worth is this.
I am not sure that algae "Eaters" are the answer, to your problem. A sump will help but will only aid in the removal of the GHA. You can add a bunch more snails that eat GHA. (not sure what kind if any) It may be a stage of your tank maturing, all tanks do this at some point.
I am sure more experienced reefers will chime in,
Good luck

Peppie

 

[tat2z_21]

Well there is a huge article on algeas. Nitrates are a huge one and if they are in the high teens that is definitely what is feeding your algea. I would try to figure out where they are coming from. I have heard that the rocks used can leach nitrates but more thenlikely itnis coming from your hang on back filter. The filter pad in them and trapped food all become a nitrate factory. They need to be cleaned probably every time you do water changes. Also how much and often do you feed?

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Tat,

I have heard that about the HOB's. I tent to change all 3 elements of my HOB filter once per month. I can try to change that to once per week with my water changes and see if that makes a change. At every water change i try my best to clean all the dirty parts of my HOB, but maybe once a month is not enough. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

As far as the feeding, I use the food mix recommended by a local fish store, and also Kevinpo here on the forums. I tend to give my fish 1 small portion each day. Its about enough to feed him for a little over 1 minute, which i thought was the prescribed amount. I didn't want to reduce the amount since I didn't want him to starve. Do you think less is prescribed? I could try feeding the same amount every other day or half as much each day if you think that may help.

 

[Frankie]

Hello Zen and welcome to RF

A sump will not remove hair algae. It is what you put in the sump that helps to remove nitrates and phosphates out of the water. Like a skimmer, carbon bags (or reactor) and or a refugium that contains other forms of algae that out compete the HA in the display tank.

A sump is not necessary to have a reef setup but helps a lot because of the added equipment space.

How often are you doing water changes? Water changes on a system like yours are key to success.

I recommend doing 50% water changes until your nitrates and phosphates are down to zero. Once there you can start doing weekly water changes of 20%. After a few weeks of testing in at zero cut that back to 10-5% weekly.

Skip all the products sold for these issues. There just Band-Aids and will not fix the problem.

On the HOB filter remove everything and just add carbon until you can get better filtration. No mechanical filtration in there or it becomes a detritus trap as Jay suggested.

During the water changes keep sucking out as much HA as you can.

Hope this helps. Look forward to some updates as time go's by.

Frank

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Frankie and Jay,

Thanks for the advise and the welcome. All of the folks here have been really helpful thus far.

I understand that a sump itself won't remove hair algae. I was just under the impression that a sump with Macro algae would help greatly to reduce the Nitrate levels in the tank which is what feeds the algae (along with light and phosphates). So in turn wouldn't the addition of a properly setup sump help continually "starve" the algae out?

To be honest on the water change front, I was originally feeding my tank with tap water. When i first started with my tank i was unaware of the benefit or even existence of a RO/DI system for water. I've since corrected that. Now that I have the RO/DI (about 1 month), i've been doing 20% water changes about every 5-7 days. during the water change i also clean the gravel bed, and clean the live rock and HOB filter. I only replace the HOB filtration elements once per month though. I haven't noticed any significant reduction in Nitrates, so I'll try going to 50% water changes until they begin to subside. I have tested my RO/DI output and is measures 0 nitrates; my tap water used to measure in the 10ppm nitrate range.

I totally agree with you on the avoidance of additives. In my opinion, it seems the use of an additive would only mask the problem rather than solve it.

Interesting point on the HOB, i did some more reading on it and it sounds like they can become a Nitrate factory sometimes. I also found some articles saying that it is possible to run a 40g tank with 40+ lbs of live rock and no HOB filter. Apparently they attach the hob filter during live rock and gravel cleaning and then remove it and store it until the next cleaning. Is this advised? I'd be willing to give it a try as long as something like this wouldn't end up killing the inhabitants (I'm not 100% what a HOB filter really "filters" but if it was removed would the particles not being filtered end up killing the fish?). Maybe i'm miss reading what you were suggesting though.

As far as sucking out the HA during the cleanings, I've ben able to do this with a gravel filter for the base material, but how (if at all) do I remove it from the live rock? the only way i can get it off the areas where it grows on the glass is with a scraper. Should i be scraping the live rock somehow to remove it? I tied to remove it by squirting a turkey baster full of water and "sucking" with the gravel filter, but it seems to have a pretty good hold on the areas of live rock where it is growing.

 

[Frankie]

Hey Zen,

For removing the ha from the rock I tell people to fray the end of their syphon hose with little V notches cut around the end. Making it like a brush. Use this to dislodge the ha as you suck the water out. This works great also with a sump, put a filter sock into your sump, (once you get one) and syphon into the sock for as long as you want. You don't loose water this way and filter out all the crap that is on the rocks.

Your rock is most likely saturated with nitrates and phosphates from the months of tap being introduced. The water changing schedule I refereed to you will help in removing this from the rocks also. Kinda like deleting it will draw the N&P out of the rock.
Glad your taking my advice on that. You will see some good improvements in a short time from the water changing regiment. Don't give up after the second week. It will take a few months to remove the N&P from the system. You should see a big difference in water tests after the first few 50% water changes.

Because of the volume of water being removed and replaced be sure of the temperature and PH prior to adding the new water. This will lessen the blow to the livestock.

Personally, I test my make up water for Temp, PH, Nitrates & phosphates. (calcium & magnesium one time per batch of salt) Salinity should be 1.026 (35 ppt on a refractometer)

Lighting also plays a factor in the growth of ha. If you have old bulbs change them out. What is your photoperiod? I recommend no more then 8 hours a day full lighting. once things are under control you can step that up to 10 hours if you like.

I agree that you can run this system with just a skimmer and live rock. I would not recommend doing this without a skimmer. Being you have no sump you may consider replacing the HOB filter with a HOB skimmer instead.

Is this HOB filter your using a bio wheel filter? If so remove the wheel. It is what is causing the rise in nitrates.

Frank

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Frankie,

Thanks for all the god information.

I just completed my first 50% water change. I would agree with you too, with my normal 10-20% changes i'm not horribly worried about temp and ph, but with the 50% change i ended up heating and adjusting the new water overnight so that everything matched up. I figured it would be too much of a shock to the livestock if the 50% added water was too far different from the water already int he tank.

I'll give the notches in the gravel vacuum a shot and see how it works. And my lighting regiment is about 8 hours per day, so i think i'll leave that as is for now and increase once everything normalizes. As far as the skimmer, I unfortunately already purchased my sump skimmer (a non HOB unit), but i'll see if theres some way I can plumb a 5gallon bucket to the skimmer so i can use the skimmer with the existing system until I get the stand and sump done.

I spent about 5 hours last night drawing up the plans for the stand. If it comes out looking OK, maybe i'll post the build up on the DYI forum lol. I think i'll move it up a little in priority around the house so i can get the sump/skimmer up and running sooner than later. I'll keep you posed on the progress of the water. Thanks again for all the advise.

 

[Paul B]

In a tank as new as yours this is perfectly normal. It doesn't always happen but it usually does. Eventually the tank will settle down and you should not have this problem. It is more of a new tank problem so don't get discouraged.

 

[mcdonaldjosh7]

There seems to be a lot of useful info in this thread already. I did not read through all of it, so I apologize ahead of time if I restate anything...

First off, cleanup crews are virtually pointless if you can't pull out their waste...essentially, if you can't pull out the waste the produce, then whenever they eat algae, their waste goes to feed more algae. So you will need a skimmer or something like that to remove the waste your clean up crew produces.

Now, there is an animal that will readily clean up a tank...the Sea Hare will eat this algae pretty quickly. Most fish stores carry them, but you might want to call before hand.

You will want a Phosphate test kit. Phosphates are what feeds the Green Hair Algae. Test, and see if they are higher than they should be. If so, you might want to think about buying a phosphate reactor to keep them in check.

Thats all my input. Update us all on how it works out!

-Josiah

 

[Somethings Fishy]

i agree with removing phosphates but have had good luck with cleanup crews with overall maintenance....

 

[T1tan360]

What kind of substrate are you using? I noticed you mentioned gravel a few times and I was just curious. What is your lighting schedule?

And I agree with everything posted ditch the HOB filter grab a
glass-holes.com overflow kit use a 20l for a sump and get a properly rated skimmer for your set up.

Also like what was said this is normal for new ranks to go through this.

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey T1tan,

My substrate is mostly sand, but also some gravel mixed in. My lighting schedule runs from about 9AM to 5PM.

 

[T1tan360]

As in freshwater gravel? That can cause high nitrates as well larger food can be lodged in between the gravel dead zone and just become a nitrate factory. Someone jump in and correct me if im wrong. But I'm pretty sure it's a no no in saltwater to use gravel

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Titan,

I'm not sure what you mean by "freshwater gravel", but i'll try to explain better what i have. I basically baught all the live sand i could, until the store ran out, and then got live "gravel" to make up the rest of the needed base depth (i was told 2-3 inches total). The live gravel was basically like the sand i had allready, but the particle size is slightly larger. Its not like the muti-colored beta fish gravel stuff you see at Petco or anything though, it is somewhat smaller grain size than that. I could try to snap a picture of the base to see what ya'll think if that might help. It essentailly looks like a 2.75" deep bed of sand, with some larger gravel like substrate making up the last .25" or so. The sand alsways seems to fall to the bottom, below the "gravel".

When i initially started the tank, i was going to a fish store that i ended up getting some bad information from (to the extent of loosing a few fish from fauly advice), so i wouldn't be completely suprised if they're recommended base setup was incrorrect as well. I've recently switched to a different LFS, owned by one of the member here, and have had a MUCH better experience. However, my past few months seems to have been spent fixing what i was told from the old store lol

If needed, I can pull the larger particles out and go back to buy more straight sand (im sure they're re-stocked by now) if needed. Not sure how i'd removed the larger gravel substrate though lol, but I can figures something out. I'm sure some sort of food safe sifter could filter the larger sand out from the smaller stuff.

As far as removing food particles fromt the larger substrate mass, I generally place my syphon tube about .25" into the sibtrate which pulls out most of the junk during my weekly cleanings. Its a little odd, i know, since straight sand is cleaned by agrivating the surface to release detritus, then hovering the suction slightly above the re-settled substrate to pull it out. At least thats what i read, could be wrong though. I've acctually been tempted to remove the larger substrate simple because the current cleaning method is combersome, so I may try removing the bigger stuff regardless.

Let me know what you think; if i need to pull the larger substrate elements out and provide straight sand, im more than willing to do it.

 

[tat2z_21]

Freshwater gravel

Saltwater crushed coral

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Tat,

I would say, yes, I believe it was the "river jack" or "river jewels" that is mixed with the crushed coral.

Should i sift the gravel out?

 

[T1tan360]

Yes get all of that out.. Do it slow as to not disturb the deeper part of your sand bed can release toxic chemicals

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey All,

I thought I'd post an update on the progress. I ended up splitting my gravel bed into 3 zones, and did one zone per week in an effort to only affect part of the substrate at a time. I'm not sure if that was 100% necessary to do, but it seemed like a good safety measure. Using a kitchen strainer, I managed to separate all of the gravel from the sand, and then add more sand to compensate for the lost volume. Everything is comeplete now, and no livestock seems to be harmed from the changeover. The only problem i has was with my circulation pumps sucking in sand and jamming. I found (after a little playing) that the impellers are held magnetically, and are therefore removable. Once the impellers were pulled I could use a turkey baster to blast the housing with water to clear the clogging. After the impellers were put back in, everything worked fine.

As far as the water, I completed 3 50% water changes thus far. I'm not sure if it's the water changes, the gravel removal, or just the tank settling in, but I am no longer seeing any spikes in the nitrate levels between water changes. 1 week ago, the water read about 10 for nitrates. Just prior to yesterdays water change the nitrates were still holding at 10 (and possibly 8 or 9, but hard to tell from the colors), which leads me to believe my nitrate converters are at least able to keep up and possibly reduce the nitrate levels now. After yesterdays change, nitrates were around 4 and I'm hoping they continue to head down before the next change.

I just got my shop space cleared of the last project so that I can begin working on the new fish tank stand which will have room for the sump, skimmer, and other equipment for keeping the water nice and comfy for the addition of hard coral some time next year (i hope). Thanks for all the help thus far and I'll toss up another post if i start to see Nitrates spiking again.

 

[jgalvin]

any time a bit of GHA shows up in my tank, my scarlett hermit crabs devour it. So my simple advice, and a bunch more of the scarlett (ie bright red) crabs