Annoying Alk & pH issue

[Maxx]

Boomer,
I'm confused and need some help here.

I recently moved my 58 gallon reef tank over and plumbed it into my 120 BB reef. Currently total system volume is about 200 gallons. There is a sandbed in the 58.

My Alk, (measured in Dkh) has been running high, around 11.8-12. My SPS began to show symptoms of Alk burn, so I shut off my calcium reactor, and did some water changes. Over a period of 14 days, the Dkh dropped down to 9.0. I did another large water change with my regular salt mix,(IO). Dkh jumped back up immediately to 10.0. Obviously this was caused by the fresh salt mix. I have not checked the Dkh of the salt mix.

On a whim, I hooked up my pH monitor to check the system's pH. After calibration, the pH in the sump showed 7.73 while lights were on. I immediately checked all other parameters.

Dkh 10.0
Ca 410
Mg 1350
Salinity 1.026
pH showing 7.73
Temp is 78-80 Degrees

The tank is located in the basement. Dkh, Ca, and Mg were all tested with Salifert Kits. The Mg kit was opened 9-22-10, the Alk/Dkh and Ca test kits were opened in 11-12-10.

I started the reactor back up thinking it would make my pH more stabile and bring it up. Historically, this tank has usually run a pH of about 8.1. It has always been in its current location. I also set up a Kalk dripper filled with RODi water and Sodium Bicarb, (no Kalk) to raise the pH. After 3 gallons of this mix, I checked both Dkh and pH today...

pH shows 7.8
Dkh shows 11.5

I double checked the Dkh and came up with the same number. Using the included check solution, (stated to test at 7.3 +/- 0.3) in the low resolution mode, (less accurate) and it showed a Dkh of 8.0. Not sure if this is within margin of error for solution in low resolution mode or not. But it is close.

I shut down the reactor again, (only ran for 24 hours) and continued with the Sodium Bicarb drip.

I'm at a loss here. Previously, I had a large Derasa Clam. It died in May of last year after a long bout with Pinched Mantle. I've since replaced the Derasa with another much smaller one,(3.5 inches as opposed 15 inches of the larger one), and several small (2 inch) Maxima clams in an effort to suck up some of the Dkh. I know Derasa's grow fast and utilize alot of Dkh and Ca to sustain their growth. I've had the Derasa and one of the Maxi's for over two weeks. The other two I've had for just three days.

What do think is causing this issue with the pH?
What can I do to lower the Dkh without negatively affecting my pH?

I'm confused and more than a little annoyed here Boomer.

I could definately use some sarchastic wit and a solution to my issues and what the underlying causes of them are.

Nick

 

[Maxx]

Just checked the fresh IO salt mix

pH showing 7.77
Dkh showing 11.2 (same Salifert kit as above)
Salinity is 1.024
Temp is 90 degrees F in mixing barrel, (Mag 9.5 is used as mixing pump...thats the heat source)

Nick

 

[Sasquatch]

sounds like a C02 issue? open a window and send Boomer $10.00

 

[Boomer]

Send that $10.00

With that Alk and normal onside air the pH should be ~ 8.3-8.4. And you have at those levels 2.4 ppm CO2 and with those levels at 8.2 -8.4 it should be 0.61 ppm CO. You have 75 % more CO2 than you should

And STOP the buffer of bicarb as that will make it worse and raise the CO2 more and the Alk more. Drip Kalk is what is needed. The other part may be that reactor, test the effluent and or turn down the CO2 or shut it off. The Derasa's will never suck up that much dKH. IO has an Alk like 11 dKH, so water changes are self defeating with IO, so use some Red Sea ( not Pro). You also moved the tank and it is now two tanks. DO NOT expect the same thing. And basements can equal more CO2 as basements are cooler, means more CO2 and CO2 is heavier than air so more in the basement, double whammy.

OK, that is now $90.00 added to that $10.00 = $ 100.00

 

[Sasquatch]

now thats a professional!

 

[Maxx]

Boomer,
Thanks for the info....

How does the Bicarb increase the Co2 levels?

Waitaminute.....I'm not a damn rocket surgeon here, there's a reason I was a Marine and am now a cop...

I'm guessing it has something to do with the carbon molecules disassociating from the sodium atoms and then attaching to free O2 molecules?

CO2 to the reactor is already shut off. I will find a way to go ahead and vent the basement for abit. What I really need to do is save my pennies and buy a heat exchanger and tie it to a humidistat....but that's gonna take abit.

Re:Switching to Red Sea from IO.......I REAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYY dont wanna do that. Everytime I've seen anyone switch salts, its killed off some of their critters. The two reasons I went with IO when I first started reefkeeping were that I remembered using it in my old FO tanks in the 80's, and I knew I could always find it. I still remember the whole Dr Rock, uh, Ron Shimek Red Sea Bio assay Coral Massacre of 2002-2003.

Do you know offhand (since you always know all kinds of crazy stuff like this) what Reef Crystals tests out for Dkh? I'm willing to go RC in place of IO, (yes, I know they're made by the same company...thats why it doesnt freak me out switching to it), but dont really have a giant warm fuzzy about Red Sea....


Thanks....

Oh, BTW, the check is in the mail....Trust me. I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.....

Nick

 

[Boomer]

1. HCO3- + H20 ===> H2CO3 ===> CO2 + H2O. 2. Some of this then reacts with CO3--, giving HCO3 -, then some of this goes back to 1 reaction. It is a circle till it reaches Equilibrium ( in a tank there is so real such E). The "some" is a function of pH. The lower the pH is the more HCO3- and CO2, the higher the pH the less HCO3 and CO2 and more CO3-- there is. At a seawater pH of 6, 50 % is CO2 and 50 % HCO3-. At a pH of 9, 50% is HCO3- and 50 % is CO3--. At pH's in between you have all 3, CO2 HCO3- and CO3--. The pH will determine what their % is. When you add 1 Eq of HCO3- it will give 1 Eq of CO2 and 1 Eq of Alk. When you add 1 Eq of CO3--, you get 1 Eq of CO2 but will get 2 Eq of Alk.

RC also has a high Alk like IO. I said RS has it has a Alk of ~ 8 dKH. Me I would just let the Alk come down on its own. Just add some CaCl and maybe some MgCl as needed.

How does the Bicarb increase the Co2 levels?

You can prove this to yourself. Take some seawater and add some baking soda and watch the pH meter drop at first. After the generated CO2 leaves the water the pH will go back up a tad higher than before. You will not see this with washing soda/soda ash/BBS. At any pH , say 8.3, if the Alk is 5 dKH the CO2 will be less than at 10 dKH, which will have twice the CO2. So, at normal salinity and pH anybody running a higher Alk will have more CO2 than at a lower Alk unless their pH is really high. If we run a pH of 8.3, @ 10 dKH, it will have even more CO2 than a pH of 8 @ 2 dKH by 2 x.

 

[Maxx]

Okay, had to read the first section of your post a couple times...slowly, and now think I follow.

As I stated earlier, I've had this tank running in its current location for the last 5 years with no pH issues like this before. Prior to moving the 58 gallon over and plumbing it into the 120, I did have a very small fuge filled with Cheato going. It was lit 24/7, but didnt get alot cheato growth, so I assumed it wasnt doing anything for me. Now I'm wondering if it increased/stabilized my pH and that's why I never saw this before.

Yeah, I know. Its no longer the same system, so stop expecting it to behave the same way.
However, I've been considering the purchase of a Kalk reactor to deal with this issue, and if running a fuge will improve things then I might need to consider it since I can do that cheaper than buying a new Geo Kalk reactor.

So what do you think, reactor or fuge to fix pH issues?

BTW, thanks for the info.

Nick

 

[Maxx]

I opened the basement door,(walkout basement), this morning for about an hour and ran two fans to blow air towards the open door for about a hour. The heat and humidity here in the summer prevent me from doing it much longer than that...(St louis in Aug is swampier than some jungles I've been in,(yes, swampier is word. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

However, pH is showing 7.95 as of right now, so obviously that improved things.

Nick

 

[Boomer]

Nick, So what do you think, reactor or fuge to fix pH issues? You mean Kalk reactor correct ? I would go for a fuge first. If things settle out you will be pissed off for buying a Kalk reactor A fuge is always a benefit.

 

[Maxx]

Thanks Boomer! Kalk reactor was what I was talking about.

I agree with the fuge being a bigger benefit to almost any system. I just wasnt seeing much (if any really) macro growth, so I ASS-umed that it wasnt doing much for my system other than being a pod production facility. And since I dont have anything like a Mandarin or seahorses orpiprfish that require mass quanities of pods...
I just didnt realize what that did for my pH .

I dont want to drip Kalk long term due to the added wear & tear on pumps etc.

Thanks again,

Nick

 

[Maxx]

Okay, this getting stupid...fast.

I bought a good sized airpump and ran an airstone to the sump, using room air. No improvement on pH.

Moved airpump upstairs and ran it into skimmer. No improvement on pH.

Shut down air pump, ran tubing outside,(no pump), and connected to skimmer intake. No improvement on pH.

Still have skimmer pulling air from outside, re-connected air pump upstairs to airstone in sump. No improvement in pH.

Current parameters as of 10 minutes ago:

Dkh- 9.3
Ca-375
Mg- 1260
Ph- 7.76
Salinity via refractometer 1.026
Temp is 80F

After testing, I turned my Ca reactor back on. It had been originally shut down,(no CO2), on 8-04-11 turned on again briefly 8-18-11, and shut off again 12 hours later due to high Dkh,(12.2).
I also added a small dose,( 5 tablespoons Bulk Reef Supply mg chloride, and 3 tablespoons mg sulfate, usual dosage is cups not tablespoons), or BRS Mg supplement to raise Mg.

My house was built in 1969, we have 2 semi leaky windows and an ill fitting walkout basement door, so my basement isnt airtight.

Furnace, AC, and water heater are within 10 feet of tank, but are not in an enclosed space.

Skimmer is an H&S Af150-2001 pulling approx five l/pm air,(measured at intake and through tubing outside house) via dwyer rma-22 meter. Airpump is cheapy petco brand pushing six l/pm,(again via dwyer).

I've placed both chaeto and some ulva macro algaes in the sump and lit them via 150 halogen work light. Not vast quantities of macro, but enough that it should bump up pH in some measurable way.

Ph is tested via pinpoint pH monitor with freshly (10 min ago) reef fanatic lag grade pH probe. Probe needed very little adjustment for calibration,( low by .02 at 7, and over by .01 at 10).

I'm at a serious loss for what to do here and am getting frustrated. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Nick

 

[Maxx]

Forgot to add, most acros do not appear stressed, both H.magnifica anemones and H.crispa anemone look fine. Fish dont seem fazed by my frustration.

Nick

 

[Sasquatch]

now that C02 has been ruled out the only thing that comes to mind is the joining of two tanks, the chemical make up of one has combined with the other and created an imbalance, when in doubt... water changes, big water changes

 

[Maxx]

I should have included this when I wrote the previous post.

I'm pretty sure its CO2 related. I've opened the basement door on two 3 occassions since starting this thread. Each time pH has risen, once as high as 7.99.

Each time the walkout basement door has been opened, I turned on two fans to blow air out of the basement and left the door open for 1-3 hours. Each time after the basement door is closed, in a matter of hours, the pH of the tank drops back down.

1...What permanent solution is there to this? I cant leave the basement door or a window open all the time. St Louis is either stupid swampy hot in the summer and it snows in the winter.

2...I never, EVER, had this issue before, and the tank has been in its current location and runnning since 2006. pH was always on the lower side, but was still reading at 8.0 - 8.13 using the same monitor, (different probe).

I'm really confused and annoyed by all of this.

Nick

 

[Sasquatch]

do you have fans blowing on the surface of the displays or sump area's? poor gas exchange?

 

[Boomer]

Nick

Maybe I missed it but when was the last time to cleaned that pH probe ?

 

[mojoreef]

Go find some pebble size Soda lime, put it into a container with a air tube in and air tube out fitting, now go to your skimmer and put it prior to the input of the air going to the skimmer. SO the air has to go through the canister prior to getting into the skimmer. Or do your air pump thing again and put the canister inline of its input, then stone in the sump.


Mojo

 

[Maxx]

Sasquatch, I have what I assume is good gas exchange in my system. Tanks (displays and sump) are all open topped with significant water movement both at surface and below. Again never had this issue before and tank has been in current location and running for 5 years now. Only things changed have been removal of 20 gallon fuge with chaeto, and replacement of 58 gallon display in place of fuge.

Boomer, probe is about 9-ish months old and could stand to be cleaned. Will work on that shortly. Went to LFS and spoke with the owner about this while buying more chaeto for the sump. He immediately thought it was the probe as well and when we discovered he didnt have any new ones in stock forced me to borrow the stores 6 month old pinpoint (same as mine) monitor and probe. We calibrated it in the store and I went right home.

My pH monitor/probe is showing 7.8 currently
Store's pH monitor/probe is showing 7.86 currently. Both are in the same location.

Obviously, my probe is slightly suspect, but the pH showing on the borrowed monitor doesnt exactly give a giant warm fuzzy either.

While I was there, the owner also "forced" me to borrow a Milwaukee mw600 dissolved oxygen meter.

In main display, DO is showing at 8.3 mg/l.
In sump DO Is showing at 7.9.
In 58 display, DO is showing at 8.1

I've never used one of these before, nor have I ever measured for DO, so I was unsure where I needed to be with it. According Joe,(the owner), 10.0 is ideal, but anywhere between 7.5-10 is fine. According various online sources, anywhere between 5-8 is ideal. Regardless, I'm okay by all accounts.

I also read a thread boomer replied to on another forum where he commented (words to the effect of) that high flow in a fuge can sometimes increase co2 levels, so I shut down the Stream in the section of my sump that is becoming a fuge again. Did that this morning at about 715 am.

Posting via Iphone and cant go back to edit earier in this post, but my pH monitor is now showing 7.79 and stores is showing 7.88. Further proof I need to clean the probe or buy a new one.

Mojo, I looked up soda lime....I didnt realize there was yet another expensive chemical additive to purchase for my habit, uh, hobby. Thank's for clearing that up for me!

How long is the soda lime good for? Can it be recharged like silica beads? Are the glass soda lime beads okay for what you are referring to?

I'd rather correct the original problem than go with a band aid if at all possible. But I dont really want to buy an HRV system just for my fishtank either.

Nick

 

[Sasquatch]

Just checked the fresh IO salt mix

pH showing 7.77
Dkh showing 11.2 (same Salifert kit as above)
Salinity is 1.024
Temp is 90 degrees F in mixing barrel, (Mag 9.5 is used as mixing pump...thats the heat source)

Nick

just went looking for new mixed numbers.. your ph is down on fresh mixed? how long you had this bucket of salt? could it be the problem?
Do you add your salt to 90 degree ro/di? that will affect how it mixes, colder the better for initial adding of salt