Biting Fishes Okay Together?

[leebca]

Starting over. Sorry to those who have misunderstood the poll. It's not your fault. Let me try it again to be sure you are all indicating the choice you mean to express. . .

I came across a scenario the other day that I didn't believe people would sanction. Yet, I was wrong. This poll is to ask your opinion. You can just respond to the poll without identifying yourself. I just want to understand the thoughts out there.

The Scenario

A marine hobbyist has got a community tank with a variety of marine fishes in it. It is a FOWLR marine system. The system is established, healthy, well cared for and in general well maintained.

One of the fish in the tank takes small bites out of some of the other fishes. The other fishes are seen to heal fairly quickly. But, the biting goes on, and on, and on. The aquarist thinks this is okay.

Please mark the answer in the poll you most agree with.

A bit more clarity on the choices:
1. You approve and you have no problem with the fish continuing on in this manner. No problem here that you can see.

2. You don't approve, but there is no problem with the fish continuing on as is, in this relationship. Leave them alone.

3. You don't approve, but you would recommend (not require) the hobbyist separate the biting fish from the others. That is, this answer says it is not mandatory the fish be separated, but a recommendation that they should be separated or not allowed to interact.

4. Says not only do you disapprove, but you totally cannot accept the fishes being kept together. They must be separated.

5. Says you are upset or angry that anyone would even think of doing such a thing and allow it to continue. Not only do you disapprove, but you want the matter corrected immediately by removing the biting fish or immediately separating the biting fish from the other fishes.

I appreciate your patience with my first poll here on RF.

Thanks!

 

[Jim Hart]

the fish thats being bitten is lucky, it could have been swallowed whole.

do you believe its right to feed your more agressive fish less agressive fish?

 

[leebca]

No. I believe in training all newly acquired fish in quarantine to eat frozen foods.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

In our little glass world that we make for them, we are their defenders and protectors. A few nips at first, OK.
Continual aggression, means time out for MR Meany or if an overall aggressive community, bye bye to the meek.

 

[leebca]

Can anyone relate the scenario to 'stress' and further relate this to fish 'disease?'

 

[Damsel13]

:idea:I am just glad all my fishes get along right now and they are all healthy. A varied diet and lots hiding places seem to keep all happy. Oh an WATER CHANGES
have a great day!

 

[krisfal]

Voting again in new poll:

I feel the fish should be separated, although the fish being bitten heal, the long term stress at the very least may shorten the life span of the fish, at the worse may make the fish succumb to disease or infection.

 

[Reeferdude]

Starting over. Sorry to those who have misunderstood the poll. It's not your fault. Let me try it again to be sure you are all indicating the choice you mean to express. . .

With all due respect, why do you think some misunderstood the poll? It appears by the respondents responses they understood the poll just fine, it was the choices that was flawed. That's like a politician apologizing because someone got hurt not because of what they did or said. It's nice to know someone is making sure we mean to express what we want to say. It's like all polls. Just use leading questions with certain verbal directives to obtain a desired outcome...I apologize if this post seems harsh but I don't think the people who responded to the last poll are as ignorant as this thread makes them out to be.

 

[leebca]

Hi Reeferdude.

You do not have all the information. On the previous poll (now closed) I deleted posts regarding the confusion. As I wrote "Not your fault" I meant it was my fault for the (bad) answer choices.

 

[Reeferdude]

OK. I followed that poll and didn't notice any deletions, not that I would notice anyway. Interesting poll though. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Reeferdude]

Hey Lee. Not to be a stick in the mud but I notice you have four questions leaning toward "disapproval" with caveats and only one leaning toward "approval". What about an answer like

A) I approve because it's somewhat natural in the wild.
B) I approve slightly but will watch and make changes if it continues.
C) I approve because damage has been little or non-existent
D) I may approve depending the severity.

That way there is an even amount of answers for both approval and disapproval and the poll would be more balanced. I know I know. Start my own poll right... LOL

 

[leebca]

I figured there was only one kind of 'pure' approval, Reeferdude. One where you approve and see no reason for taking action. The 'disapproval' and taking no action is an approval of sorts, isn't it? I mean, in reality, if you disapprove of something but it is okay to continue doing it, aren't you in essence approving it? It's like 'I don't like it, but it's okay.'

The things I see about your proposed answers to the poll:

A. It's not 'somewhat natural in the wild.' Fish who are hurt by other fish swim away. The biter 'wins' when the other fish retreats from the territory or area. The winner can't win, and the looser can't get away in the confines of an aquarium.

B. I don't think this answer fits the scenario. I wrote that this is ongoing, or to quote: "But, the biting goes on, and on, and on." It's a given that this event IS continuous. I purposely took away the option of 'Wait and see.' But I agree that in the beginning, I would wait and see if things settle. This situation is beyond that point, however.

C. The damage is quoted as being "small bites" that will require healing. You would like to quantitate how big the small bite is? or how much healing is needed? So as a human example, a person kept in a room with a nipping rat is okay for both if the rat bites were small enough?

D. See C. It's quantitative.

You seem to suggest an acceptable size of the bite. If, Reeferdude, you have in mind a scale or size that is okay for the fish to live with, then share your ideas for discussion. Would the number of fish being bitten matter?

The way I see it, an injury that is ongoing that is preventable, no matter how large or small, must be prevented. These fish are in our care and can't swim away from problems and situations we have created.

I think what no one has pointed out in this scenario is that BOTH fish are under stress. The biting fish is biting for a reason; the bitten fish is also being bitten for a reason. But BOTH fish are being stressed. When a fish chases another fish in the tank, we (humans) feel for the chased fish. But in the world of animals, the chaser is also being stressed. The apparent 'bully' feels threatened (perhaps in loosing territory and/or sharing resources to the newcomer, or maybe it's hungry!). That is stress on the 'bully' or in this case, the biter. What is stressing the biter, I'd also ask.

The solution of separating the biting fish from the one or more being bitten just doesn't protect and reduce stress on one fish, but on two (or more).

I wonder if it would make a difference if these were dogs. Would people intervene if they had three (or more) dogs exhibiting this behavior? if they had children that has this behavior? Hmmmm.

Thanks for the discussion, Reeferdude. I like to get out and stretch the ethics and morality of the hobby now and then.

 

[Reeferdude]

These types of philosophical discussions are always fun to participate in. I respect your opinion and since this may be my last post I'll engage. The posts original intent has taken a turn I believe since the first poll was not intended to elicit reasons for the choice made. Just the answers. That is why I felt it necessary to have a more balanced choice between "approve' and disapprove". Nevertheless. I think the best way to have this debate is to go word for word, sentence for sentence...SEE BELOW>


I figured there was only one kind of 'pure' approval, Reeferdude. One where you approve and see no reason for taking action. The 'disapproval' and taking no action is an approval of sorts, isn't it? .I mean, in reality, if you disapprove of something but it is okay to continue doing it, aren't you in essence approving it? It's like 'I don't like it, but it's okay.' No. Taking no action is not an approval, it's inaction. Think of it this way. You see a robbery in progress at the local convenient store the man appears to be dangerous. You take no action. Because of the choice of self preservation are you approving of the robbery? NO!

The things I see about your proposed answers to the poll:

A. It's not 'somewhat natural in the wild.' Fish who are hurt by other fish swim away. Think about. If you say "fish who are hurt by other fish swim away", is it not occurring in the wild? And if it occurs in the wild is it not then "natural. No question mark. Rhetorical. The fact wild fish have a larger escape route is not relevant to whether they are "bitten" The biter 'wins' when the other fish retreats from the territory or area. The winner can't win, and the looser can't get away in the confines of an aquarium.

B. I don't think this answer fits the scenario. I wrote that this is ongoing, or to quote: "But, the biting goes on, and on, and on." It's a given that this event IS continuous. I purposely took away the option of 'Wait and see.' But I agree that in the beginning, I would wait and see if things settle. This situation is beyond that point, however.

C. The damage is quoted as being "small bites" that will require healing. You would like to quantitate how big the small bite is? or how much healing is needed? So as a human example, a person kept in a room with a nipping rat is okay for both if the rat bites were small enough? You're assuming the human is imobile. In every case of injury regardless of species the extent of injury is a major factor in deciding the course of action, if any. D. See C. It's quantitative.

You seem to suggest an acceptable size of the bite. If, Reeferdude, you have in mind a scale or size that is okay for the fish to live with, then share your ideas for discussion. Would the number of fish being bitten matter? Yes.

The way I see it, an injury that is ongoing that is preventable, no matter how large or small, must be prevented. These fish are in our care and can't swim away from problems and situations we have created.

I think what no one has pointed out in this scenario is that BOTH fish are under stress. The biting fish is biting for a reason; the bitten fish is also being bitten for a reason. But BOTH fish are being stressed. When a fish chases another fish in the tank, we (humans) feel for the chased fish. But in the world of animals, the chaser is also being stressed. The apparent 'bully' feels threatened (perhaps in loosing territory and/or sharing resources to the newcomer, or maybe it's hungry!). That is stress on the 'bully' or in this case, the biter. What is stressing the biter, I'd also ask.

The solution of separating the biting fish from the one or more being bitten just doesn't protect and reduce stress on one fish, but on two (or more).

I wonder if it would make a difference if these were dogs. Would people intervene if they had three (or more) dogs exhibiting this behavior? if they had children that has this behavior? Hmmmm.

Try not to compare any of this paragraph with fish. Funny you bring that up, bullies, children ect. Life has stress. Trying to create a stress free utopia without injury or hardship is at the core of this thread and discussion. We the people, through government and the squeaky wheel force citizens to wear seatbelt. To stop smoking. To wear helmets. To use car seats and so on. All under the guise of protection. Protecting us from ourselves. Is separating the bully from the bullied the best solution? I say no. I say the bully needs a beat down. But that type of head on straight forward remedy isn't socially acceptable today. Completely eliminating stress whether it be family, freinds or fish is unrealistic. It's idealistic.

Thanks for the discussion, Reeferdude. I like to get out and stretch the ethics and morality of the hobby now and then.

You're welcome. Although to the casual reader this post may appear to be somewhat off topic, it is not. The core of this discussion has many roots. The readers ability to comprehend the complexity of the topic and apply common sense logic and critical thinking skills to the subject matter is where the discussion becomes thought provoking...

 

[Jan]

Hi Lee,

Are you going to post a synopsis/summary of the poll results or do the voting tallies speak for themselves? Just wondering what comes next....

 

[leebca]

I meant to post to you before, Jan. Thank you for your patience and for hanging in there. I appreciate the effort you went through for my mistakes.

I was hoping that someone who could explain why it was okay for the fishes to be kept together under these circumstances, would post. So far I have voters who approve the scenario but haven't seen anyone actually explain why it is okay, or address the posters who gave reasons why it isn't okay.

Other than Reeferdude who seemed to prefer to change the scenario, I don't clearly see anyone stepping up to share their opinion on why to let the scenario continue. Does this mean something?

I figure I will post a summary observation of the voting after next weekend. If you had/have something else in mind, please share.

 

[Jan]

Thank you for your patience and for hanging in there. I appreciate the effort you went through for my mistakes.

It was no effort at all, Lee.

Other than Reeferdude who seemed to prefer to change the scenario, I don't clearly see anyone stepping up to share their opinion on why to let the scenario continue. Does this mean something?

Yes, I think this is highly significant. I think it's a little like explaining in a public forum why people should continue to buy and wear fur coats. An individual may privately feel that way, but explaining the reasons in a public, wildlife-oriented forum may not be something they want to do. JMO

 

[Scooterman]

Surprised by this Lee? All I see is people who care & naturally wouldn't want to see one of their fish eaten alive, regardless if it is a natural occurrence or not. I have seen it many times in the wild, so in nature it is a natural event, in a glass cage, the only way it could be an even fight would be to set them free again.
I once had 6 African cichlids, they ate the tail & fins of the smallest one but @ the end, it was the smallest one that outlived them all, why did I let it happen, I don't know, maybe because I was young & it didn't bother me.

 

[Reeferdude]

Other than Reeferdude who seemed to prefer to change the scenario, I don't clearly see anyone stepping up to share their opinion on why to let the scenario continue. Does this mean something?

Typically people avoid confrontation. I do not. It's that simple. You're a respected figure around here and regardless of opposing viewpoints most would rather keep quiet than challenge you. Back to the critical thinking skills. My statements have nothing to do with "changing" the scenerio. The poll is skewed. Leans toward disapproval. It's your objective to elicit a particular response to support your personal opinion and personal disapproval of an experience you had. It's that simple.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Typically people avoid confrontation...most would rather keep quiet than challenge you... It's your objective to elicit a particular response to support your personal opinion and personal disapproval of an experience you had. It's that simple.

This site has no shortage of opinionated members willing to express their views. Are you making a point pertaining to the topic, other than the methodology on the survey?

As to confrontational comments, in lieu of prompting discussion; they tend to suppress others from expressing their opinions. Whereas there are many who express varied opinions here, there are very few who go on the attack. Putting words in another's mouth is not being confrontational as much as being less than polite...

Regards,
Mike

 

[porthios]

here's my vote..

i wouldn't let it continue in one of my tanks and i couldn't care less what others do in theirs..