Brooklynella treatment questions...

[Maxx]

Hi Lee,

Managed to aquire a smaller pair of A. leucokranos clowns...by pair I mean two, (as opposed to mated) and by smaller I mean the larger one is about 1.25 inches, and the smaller not quite an inch in length.

These fish shipped very poorly, and looked about as close to dead as I'd ever like to see fish in my care. I was warned that they might look "lethargic" when I got them, and if looked like that when I got them, I was told to do a fast (less than 30 minutes) acclimation and get them in the tank. They were in the bag for about 15 hours, (start to finish), and I did the fast acclimation and got them into a 10 gallon tank. They looked stressed, but not horribly so, in fact they ate the day they arrived.

The next morning, I looked at the larger one and saw several white patches that appeared like a mucous coating, some larger white spots that could have been ich, and the fish was breathing very rapidly...somewhere in the vicinity of 150 + bpm based on gill plate movement...

Quick double check of the signs/symptoms of Brook, and I was pretty sure she had it....which meant the other one had it too...

I was able to get the large clown caught...but the smaller one evaded me. I did a 30 minute formalin bath in one gallon of water as per this link here...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/formalinbaths.html

She was "rinsed" and returned to the 10 gallon tank....I know, but I was gonna be late for work otherwise, and didnt have time to set up a proper hospital/qt tank.

The next day, I caught both clowns and did another 30 minute formalin bath, "rinsed" them both, and then put them in the only other tank I have, a 2.5 gallon tank. It has an airstone, a small heater, and a piece of PVC, and I lowered the salinity to 1.009 as per my refractometer.

This morning, did another formalin bath. Water for the bath came from the 10 gallon tank, "rinse" water came from another cycled tank which is a completely different system, and the QT was siphoned empty, and fresh water from the same system the "rinse" water came from was placed in the qt, and it was lowered to a salinity of 1.009 again.

Just checked the clowns again when I got home from work....the larger one is looking much better, and actually chasing the smaller one away from the PVC....they both ate today...so things are looking up.

My questions, (finally) are this....

When I'm done with the formalin baths, how long should I watch the clowns to see if the Brook is completely gone? The 10 gallon has a Golden Dwarf Moray in it currently, along with two anemones. I'm thinking that Brook can use the GDM as a host as well, cant it? With the anemone's in the tank, I will not be doing anything to the tank in general....but do I need to do a series of Formalin baths on the GDM too? I've read that dosage of Formalin on scaleless fishes is less then the dosage for scaled fish....what would be the right dosage in this case? How long do I need to leave the 10 gallon fallow of fish (if at all) to be sure the Brook is gone? Is hyposalinty necessary in this case? I realize it wont treat the Brook, but is the lowered osmotic pressure helping the fish in case or is not really necessary?

Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated in this situation.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Elmo18]

Hi Nick.

If these are the tank raised/captive bred ones, they shouldn't have any brooklynella at all...

Best,
Ilham

 

[Maxx]

Yeah thats what I thought too...but I can only tell you what I saw when I was observing the fish....

If they were in a tank with a wild caught parent, couldnt they be exposed to Brook? The parents are wild caught...

Nick

 

[leebca]

Hi Nick.

When I'm done with the formalin baths, how long should I watch the clowns to see if the Brook is completely gone?

At least four weeks.

Brook can use the GDM as a host as well, cant it?

Yes.

do I need to do a series of Formalin baths on the GDM too?

I wouldn't.

Is hyposalinty necessary in this case?

Not at all.

is the lowered osmotic pressure helping the fish in case or is not really necessary?

Much too low to help the fish with this function. The lowering of the specific gravity to help fish is usually about 1.016 to 1.018.

It is unclear from your post, but, is the 10 gallon the display tank for the fish? If so, these fish should not be put into such a small tank, let alone the eel.

 

[Curtswearing]

It is unclear from your post, but, is the 10 gallon the display tank for the fish? If so, these fish should not be put into such a small tank, let alone the eel.

No. Nick suffers from MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome). The 10 would just be another quarantine tank.

 

[Maxx]

It is unclear from your post, but, is the 10 gallon the display tank for the fish? If so, these fish should not be put into such a small tank, let alone the eel.

Lee,
its a temporary thing. In less than a month, the clowns and the eel will be placed in a 20 gallon tank which is plumbed into my 120, (150 gallons total, with a then total system volume of approx 150-160 counting displacement of rock etc).

By the time the clowns are done w/ the qt process, everything in the 10 gallon will be transferred to the larger system. Also, the eel is less than 7 inches in overall length....this is a true dwarf moray.


If the GDM can carry the Brook parasite, why should I not do Formalin baths on it? Should I be concerned about Brook reoccurring with these clowns or occurring in the mated pair of Onyx percs I have in the 120 if all these fish are to be sharing the system through different tanks? How would you reccomend ensuring the GDM does not transfer Brook over to the larger system?

Thank you for the heads up about the lowered specific gravity information...I had read somewhere, (sorry cant rememeber where exactly) that lowering it to that level will help the fish by reducing the effort to regulate osmotic pressure in the fish. I will start gradually raising the specific gravity of their water.

Nick

 

[leebca]

Brooklynellosis is attributed to a single microbe, although in reality there is a group of ciliated parasites that can cause the symptoms.

The reason I don't suggest that the eel be treated is that the eel won't carry the parasite for long. The eel's resistance to these pathogens is pretty good and the pathogen will go away if it has no other 'friendly' host.

The only way to relatively guarantee that the one microbe of Brook is not in the entire system is to remove all fish from the system. Keep the eel in its own QT. Formalin treat all other fishes. Return all fish to the main system, except the eel. Keep the eel out for another 4 weeks and then return the eel.

Brooklynellosis has no free swimming stage, so going fishless is not a solution. Fish must be treated in such as way that a just-treated fish does not come into contact with an untreated fish. So if the QT has 3 fishes in its, you treat one and put it into a new QT. Then you treat the second and put it in with the first. Then you treat the third and put it in with the first two. See the pattern? This is repeated for successive treatments up to 5.

Lastly, keeping it at bay, even if it is in the main system, is a matter of providing top nutrition and reducing stress on the fishes, on an on-going basis.

 

[Maxx]

Bear with me here...I've run out of room for more tanks, even on a temporary basis....

If I'm understanding correctly, I could keep the clowns in QT for 4 weeks. After that period, I could move them over to the 20 gallon tank which will be plumbed into my 120 gallon tank. If I leave the eel in the 10 gallon, (Which is where the clowns were first introduced to and where I discovered they had Brook), for the 4 weeks, since it is not a good host for the Brook pathogen, it will kick Brook on its own, and will be safe to transplant to the 20 gallon tank as well?

Or did I just completely misunderstand you?

Nick

 

[leebca]

I think that's right. Except, I'm not terribly enthused about the formalin treatment you've given them so far. Did you put a treated fish back into the tank with an untreated fish? Then the treated fish was re-contaminated.

 

[Maxx]

I'm not terribly enthused about the formalin treatment you've given them so far.

Why not? Do you prefer copper for Brook Treatments?

Did you put a treated fish back into the tank with an untreated fish? Then the treated fish was re-contaminated.

Yeah.... I know....

However, after the three subsequent treatments, its improved 100%.

Nick

 

[leebca]

In the sense the way you handled it -- second point.

 

[Maxx]

In the sense the way you handled it -- second point.

Not following you there Lee...



Nick

 

[Elmo18]

Nick, how are the clowns?

I had no clue they were exposed in a parent system. I'm not sure how they could develop or catch Brooklynella.

You do not want to drop salinity when treating for brooklynella, and especially for formalin baths. Anything in the 1.016-1.017 is good. I would drop lower once things look better and keep it down for a couple of weeks at least.

Best,
Ilham

 

[leebca]

Sorry Nick. I've been distracted these last couple of days. . .

When I originally wrote about the treatment, it was about your treatment, not the treatment. Is this sounding any clearer?

Treating one fish and putting it back in with an untreated fish is not a desirable process, that's all I was meaning.

 

[Maxx]

11-02-07

The clowns are doing fine thus far....did the final formalin treatment yesterday. They are eating aggressively and breathing normally.

Further updates as events warrant.

Nick

 

[Rod Buehler]

Awesome Nick!

 

[Maxx]

Yeah,
I'm pretty jazzed about them. The concept is to keep them happy and healthy until they mature and then ideally they'll start to mate and lay eggs...at that point, I will wait and see how many of the eggs appear viable,(ie fertilized and capable of actually producing a healthy larva). Once I determine there are a significant amount of healthy fertilized eggs......you will be getting a call from me....

Nick

Edit....doh!
Forgot to add, they are doing great.....eating like little pigs.....still really skittish though.

 

[Maxx]

11-11-07

Clowns are still doing good. Eating aggressively, and behaving "normally", for clowns....

Recap...

Clowns arrived on 10-25-07
Formalin dips and isolation in QT on 10-27-07
Final Formalin dip on 11-1-07
Clowns should be able to go back w/ anemones on 11-27-07
17 days to go...

Nick

 

[Maxx]

Hey Lee, Rob, and Ilham,

I rethought the math on the timeline for the clowns in the QT. If they went in on 10-27-07, 28 days after that would be Nov 24th. I moved them from the QT tank to the 20H display tank today, so they actually spent 29 days in QT...

Thought you might like to see pics of them in their new tank.

Thanks for all your help guys!

Nick