continuing saga w/dead fish

[whowadat]

Hello,

This is a post that updates "Dead Emperor" part 2


Over the course of the last 8-9 days I have tested the "basics" daily with no discernable levels of ammonia, or assorted "ates". Calcium is at 400-420 with alk at 8-9 and salinty at .025 (I don't know mag) and PH is at 8.0 I have also made three water changes of 20 to 30% following the methods noted on this forum to the best of my ability matching temp, salinity, and PH levels. I use RO/DI water out of a 2 month old Spectrapure unit. Presently I don't have my TDS meter hooked up to it.

This is a "maturing" 120 gallon tank that was rebuilt after being set up for almost two years. After rebuild it sat fallow for four weeks prior to adding 5 fish two weeks ago. It has approximately 150 pounds LR, a CS8-2 Euroreef skimmer, a Mag 18 return pump (4' head), three 6045 Tunze powerheads, a 40 gallon sump with a refugium sporting a 3" dsb, chaeto, and another 20 pounds of LR. My ATO uses RO/DO for topoffs, and I have two 250watt MH lamps (10K) running the lights from 11:00 am until 7:00pm Tempature is steady at 78 degrees, tank sits in a basement with some airflow from outdoors but no sunlight.

During the four week "fallow" period a diatom algae bloom occurred, as did a heavy dose of green hair algae, the original rocks came with a healthy dose of red "cotton candy" algae. Prior to adding fish no food was ever put in tank. The tank has had as original inhabitants a GBTA, a couple of softie corals, two baseball sized rocks of encrusting gorgonians, a half dozen blue legged crabs, plus a couple dozen mushrooms on rocks, since it was set back up. (so maybe that means it wasn't fallow afterall) The diatom bloom came and went on its own, the green hair disappeared after a week when I redirected flow from powerheads, the red fuzzy algae is still around although the addition of six Turbo snails 3 weeks ago and basic removal with new toothbrush has helped - its considerably less than when tank was set back up some 6 weeks ago now.

Three mature fish, a Chevron Tang, a Marine Betta, and a Bicolor angel were added to tank two weeks ago. These fish came from a two year old established tank that was broke down and sold to someone else. I also added from that tank three gorgonias, a small rock of zoanthids, and a medium sized rock with mushrooms. Two fish were added within two days of the previous three, a Blue angel and a juvenile Emperor, which were purchased from LFS. For approximately 5 days all was well with fish seemingly getting along and eating very well, I have an extensive rock formation with lots of caves. Sorry to be redundant from previous threads but details are apparently important.

Blueangel showed signs of a fungus/bacterial growth over lips - similar to a milk mustache. It was the only fish to show signs of a problem in my limited/next to none, health care experience with saltwater fish. I treated entire tank with Furan 2 thinking all fish may have Columnaris or potential for having health problems. After first 24 hour period of meds juv. Emperor turned up dead, it had no obvious problems at all and its death was a complete surprise. Added Maxi-jet with air bubble tube in hopes of further oxygenating water. Noticed Chevron tang swimming in flow of powerhead most of the time.

Treated entire tank a second time per instructions 24 hours after first dose. All fish still alive. Made 25% water change per instructions - should add made 25% WC prior to meds per instructions. Netted Blueangel still with mustache and placed in 40 gallon QT that had been up and running for a couple of weeks. QT has some tonga branch LR that had been kept alive in a tub with heater, powerhead, and WCs over the course of a month. Not much rock, just a few pieces offering shelter. Basic water parameters of QT are exactly the same as DT with exception of 7.8 PH when tested yesterday. WC's of 10% made every three days sucking up and sand particles/detritus from bottom. Dosed Furan 2 into 40 gallon QT tank. (hospital tank now)

Next day (Wednesday 17th) added carbon to display tank to rid it of meds, half of a 14oz box in a "sock" placed in flow of sump. Prior to addition rinsed, and rinsed, and rinsed, and rinsed.....etc. Blueangel found dead less than 12 hours after being placed in QT with meds. Did 10% WC in QT which now was empty. Yesterday come home after 12 hours on road to discover Chevron Tang very docile and lethargic in display tank. Easily net him and place in QT tank - this morning Chevron dead.


Now thats alot of details to include for a couple of simple questions....what is killing my fish and how should I now proceed with the two remaining...a Bicolor angel and a Marine Betta ? The Betta ate well yesterday, the bicolor did not and I believe is on the verge of keeling over as it is lethargic too. Tested ammonia and "ates" parameters again this morning in both tanks, no changes from above. I should add the GBTA is looking a bit bleached at the tips, a sinularia (sp?) soft coral is bleach white, but no other obvious signs there is/may be a problem.

I'm looking for "lowest hanging fruit" answers or possibilities. I feel that the fish purchased from LFS were sick with some sort of bacterial disease which infected the others. I did not practice proper acclimating, QT, or probably a plethora of other procedures outlined in the forum - however pointing that out does not answer my two basic questions. My heart is in the right place and I would like to learn from my mistakes, but I don't feel that anything I did is the sole reason these fish died. I would add a third question....assuming I wind up with empty tank due to two more fish deaths, how best to proceed with this tank. (I know for me some more reading and following instructions)

Thank you for your time, it is appreciated.

 

[jag3534]

You know, we had a lot of problems figuring out these things ta the beginning, a lot of "unknown cause" (to us) deaths, algae blooms and whatnot. After losing a bunch of nice expensive fish over and over, we bought 3 damsels, and 2 chromis, and we told ourselves no more fish til we keep these alive and healthy for several months. Well, we did that and about 5 months later they had all doubled in size, and now, a year later, we haven't had any unexplained deaths at all. Just remembeer to TAKE IT SLOW!! It's the hardest lesson to learn, but probably one of the best. Just take a while(months) to learn proper husbandry of a reef tank. How to keep good params, how often to do WC's, how to feed the fish, and just to settle into a cycle, and learn what healthy fish look and act like. In the meantime, stuff will come up, that you'll have to research and learn about, and it all helps down the road.

 

[krisfal]

What test kits are you using? I cannot believe you added 5 large fish to a tank (that was fallow) within a week and did not have any nitrates as a result. It takes some time for the biological filtration too catch up with an increased bio-load. I added two large fish to my 125g system after it cycled and within days saw nitrates climbing, algea blooms etc. all indications of a new cycle due to the increased bio load.

While I do not believe this is what killed your fish, if your test kits are not accurate it is a lot harder to know what is going on in your tank.

I suspect like you do something came in with one of the fish and spread. This is why QT is the best practice, worse case you lose the new fish, and not your whole tank full.

To allow your biological filtration to catch up you should add one fish at a time and allow several weeks between additions. I only added 2 at the same time to my tank as they were fish I had fostered out that needed to be brought home so that the tank they were in could be taken down for a rebuild. I have had these 2 for a few years and they went through QT when purchased. They (Asfur Angel and Naso, both aprox 6") and a lawnmower blenny are the only residents in my system and they are too much for the tank, cannot keep nitrates below 10 even with a huge quality skimmer and 30% weekly water changes. They are just too much for this tank, and will be moving to a much larger tank within a few months.

Like others have mentioned take your time, QT your fish after proper acclimation and increase the bio load slowly. You may never find out what happened to these fish but if you follow a QT regimin you will never have to suffer major losses like this again due to disease or parasite (only from equipment failures, power outages and all the other worries we all have with our tanks :shock

 

[jezzeaepi]

I second what krisfal said. If you added 5 large fish and didn't notice anything on your test kits, then something is wrong with the test kits or there is some sort of testing error going on. It sounds to me exactly like some ammonia poisoning.

 

[whowadat]

Well, thanks for the input guys. I'm using an API test kit for saltwater, I mean its pretty straight forward and I'm not color blind. I've had my better half do it also, she came up with a spread sheet to keep track of everything so we've been pretty diligent about keeping up with our records. (I mean thats part of the fun right?)

I don't know whats more amazing, this idea that folks would be shocked that I added five fish into a 120 gallon tank over the course of two days, or the dozen of people who stated I could add the four fish that came with the tank to the tank right away - we're talking about the very same day the tank was moved and set back up.

Heck, I took the initiative and went out and bought a 40 gallon breeder, new LR from the fish store, two small Penguin HOB power filters, and a T5 light fixture to house these four fish from a 2 year old tank, JUST SO I could let the 120 sit empty for four weeks! Those four original fish that came with the tank and placed in that makeshift setup are alive and doing well, (the fish were put in there after just two weeks) here's a couple of pics.....

Now I have since got a Lifereef HOB overflow and a Euroreef skimmer, plus added a 20long sump to the whole shebang. The same maintenance regime and "processes" has been used for both tanks yet the more established 120 with the gear from day one is a mystery fish killer. Here's a picture of the 120 after being set up.....

The reason five fish were added at such a close period of time was to reduce the chance of territorial fighting, which was suggested could be a problem. I monitored the situation very closely looking for any sort of nitrate or ammonia spike, I made sure they were fed just once and they cleaned up what was put in there. Keep in mind, in what....8 days now there has been three water changes of 25% so the idea of a bad test kit or ammonia poisoning is slim. Given that five fish I had originally ordered from same LFS died within 3 days upon arrival to their store - I had to reorder and intentionally waited 10 days (all the while they were pestering for me to pickup) before only picking up the two that looked good. Throw in a maroon clown that was purchased from same LFS for another tank which died in QT within 4 days of purchase, I'm leaning pretty heavily that I should be shopping elsewhere. Throw in meds, salt for multiple WCs, tons of aggravation, and a few hundred bucks for fish....price potentially climbing higher....and what you end up with is sourgrapes from a newbie who in the future will shop only from distributor offering 10-14 day guarantee. (how many LFS's offer that ??)

Well, I guess I'll wait and see what happens to the other two, keeping our fingers crossed......

 

[krisfal]

I ditched my API test kits after trying salifert. API Nitrates 0 = Salifert Nitrates 50+, I now use Elos test kits. They are spendy but I would rather know what I am dealing with in my tank.

I do feel your test kits may be leading you astray on your water quality. If you used antibiotics in the display tank you likely killed the benificial bacteria (biological filter) and then add to that dying fish you have to have had some nitrates at a minimum and likely some ammonia and nitrites. If you are not seeing that in your test then there is something wrong.

You do not state where you live, if you are close by I would be willing to use my test kits on your water for comparison.

 

[whowadat]

Hi Kris, thanks for the offer but I'm several hundred miles from you.

I will double check my parameters with a Salifert test kit(s), not familiar with Elos but I'll look into them too. And thank you very much for a constructive answer, I really would hope that my API test kit is garbage, I would much rather go forward from here knowing I have results I can count on rather than be mislead by a crummy kit. Money is always an object but knowing EXACTLY what my water chemistry is will be worth every penny!

(On a side note if API is garbage they shouldn't be sold....PERIOD!)

 

[jezzeaepi]

The problem with most test kits in that they are "hobby grade" and not "laboratory grade." This means they have a larger degree of error. Salifert and Elos are both still hobby grade test kits, but they have been shown to be consistently more accurate. They still produce bad kits from time to time though, so I prefer to have two of everything.

 

[krisfal]

BTW, you have a couple of nice looking tanks there! I like the aquascaping. Glad to see this set-back isn't making you give-up rather it is making you ask questions.

It is important to understand the chemistry of our tanks, a good understanding of the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate cycle will help you understand when you should be questioning the results you are getting from your test kit. Do some searches in the forums for this topic, I know there are some real good discussions that I have read and learned from. Also I recommend ready every sticky in Lee's fish forum at least once.

In addition the book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner is a great resource of information, I wish I had bought it when I first started, but still found it a very good read even after being in the hobby a couple of years.

 

[leebca]

The photos seem to be of a tank that is very 'new.' How soon after setting it up were those photos taken?

 

[whowadat]

Photos of larger tank were taken within a couple days of being re-set up, (about 6 weeks ago now) top photo of 40 gallon was about 8 weeks after setting up, (cyno is gone now after addition of skimmer) bottom photo was earlier. Four original fish from the 120 appear to be doing fine so far in the 40, I always intended to pull the yellow tang out and place into the 120 but I'm gonna wait a while in the hopes that everything is okay.

Short of making a couple more WCs over the next week or so I don't know what else to do with the 120 and its two inhabitants. I haven't got the other test kit yet, heading to LFS here shortly and assuming basic water parameters are okay, I'm not sure what else I can do except keep an eye on things and see if something raises a red flag.

 

[whowadat]

Well, purchased the Salifert Nitrate test kit after a looooong search amongst a dozen LFS's and assorted Petsmart / Petcos. Tested water in the 120 and came up with a big fat zero. Since it was my first time using the test I tried again, afterall 1ml of water sure ain't much and a "level" spoonful of the two chemicals does leave some room for error.

In natural evening light on a cloudy day it again read zilch when looked from top down, held up to the side where instructions state color is ten times the concentration so you should divide by 10, I came up with 25 so that is 2.5 ppm which of course is very good especially given that 0 ppm for any length of time is not exactly reasonable. Couldn't find the ammonia test from Salifert so purchased a Tetratest to compare to the API - it too shows zero mg/l so ammonia apparently is not a problem. (at least not today some 24 hours plus after my Chevron died under mysterious to me circumstances)

I doubled checked nitrates on my 40 gallon breeder which showed zero from looking down but 50 when viewed from the side which divided by 10 is 5 ppm. I doubled checked that against the API test kit which also showed 5 ppm but the difference of color shade between 5 and 10 is fairly hard to differentiate - at least to my older eyes. It too shows zero ammonia but tomorrow is WC day for that tank so the nitrates should be taken care of.

All in all I'm still left with the impression that the fish purchased from LFS were sick with some sort of bacterial/fungus infection and/or flukes (I didn't FW dip them prior to addition into tank so I can't say if parasites were present using the ol' clear bowl method) and either the infection or using furan 2 to treat entire DT caused some sort of an issue where the previously healthy Chevron kicked the bucket too. Fed the Bicolor and the Marine Betta tonight, didn't see the bicolor eat so it may not be out of the woods yet. A soft sinularia (sp?) coral is bleached white as is a small chalice of unknown name/type and the tips of GBTA are bleached too....obviously something happened in tank. We'll wait and see.....