Copper interactions

[azgard1]

Boomer, I am curious about copper reactions to other chemicals.

Regarding Complexed Copper I noticed you had done some research regarding
water conditioners and if they were safe with copper med. Also, I read that Prime or Amquel are sulfate based.

Question:

I am using ammo-lock is this also sulfate based? Will this have a bad reaction with copper for the fish.? Or is sulfa-based and sulfate-based two different things?

Would it be reasonable to use something like ammo-lock to keep ammonia at bay during a fish treatment when various copper and broad spectrum antibiotics destroy the bio system?

Is copperSafe considered to be Complexed Copper and how will that product compare to Cupramine for usage?

Thank you

 

[kevin1000]

As I recall using some ammonia conversion products will have a negative impact on some copper products ... I believe that Seachems FAQ on cupramine indicates that excessive use of Prime may convert some coppers into a more "potent" and deadly form .. might want to check out Seachem website to confirm that recollection.

Hope this helps.

 

[Boomer]

All chloramines removers are sulfate based. However, ammo-lock is a alkanolamine, know as Diethanolamine, C4H11NO2, a alphatic amine salt with sodium thiosulfate pentahydraten added to it, which is std dechlor. So, it is not only sulfate based but also an amine based. See below. Almost all other chloramine removers are not amine based but are either hydroxymethanesulfonate or Hydrosulfites based or some variant of these, such as thiosulfate.


The issue with coppers med making things more toxic is amine based complexes products, such as Cupramine. When or if the bonds are broken the Amine or even the product itself, Cupramine, can cause the dissolution of coppers that are tied up in say a gravel or SB and bring them to very high toxic levels. It is not that this may happen but will happen. It is just to what degree. How other amine based med/chloramines removers do with copper I don't know.

As far as sulfate based chloramines removers go then can covert Cu ++ copper into Cu + which is much more toxic by 10 x. This is the case for any copper med. and will happen. It is just to what degree it will happen. This is usually only and issue if these products are overdosed

The best way to treat fish disease with copper, to be safe, is with only Cupramine in a QT that is established. Most test kits give false readings, as "amine' means more or less ammonia and kits will pick this up. An amine is where ammonia has lost one or more of its H, thus NH+ or NH++ and then is tied to a radical, usually organic. Think Amino-acids, Vitamin.

Copper Safe is a copper sulfate based sequestering agent, also know as a chelating agent and often EDTA. I do not care for it. It is very difficult to get out once it is in the water. And you have to use a copper kit that does not intefer and your levels need to be on the order of 2 ppm.


Cupramine at normal levels in a QT that is ESTALISHED is not an issue and the means I did for years when treating fish.

I would also bring this to Lee Birch on the Fish/Disease forum for his thoughts. Jut copy/paste what I have stated for his remarks.

 

[azgard1]

Excellent information. Thanks Boomer.

Will SeaChem's Ammonia Alert read properly with Cupramine and various non-staining medications?

Could it be used in an un-ESTALISHED tank i.e. without a stable bio-bed as a means to monitor ammonia and to be sure water changes are sufficent?

Thanks

 

[Boomer]

Yes in both cases. The SeaChem alert works off of a ammonia gas exchange that cause the color change to give ammonia alert levels.

 

[azgard1]

Thanks, I've learned a great deal from you and Lee. I really appreciate all your help.

Bob

 

[Boomer]

You're Welcome