Dead Emperor....(long) Part 2

[whowadat]

The following day Friday, having done a bit more research on the 'net, I realize the Erythromycin meds I bought are designed for a Gram Positive infection while Columnaris and other bacterias are/can be gram negative, so I bought a couple boxes of Furan 2

You'll notice in my original thread I am treating my display tank - this was a rebuild after moving it to another location within one day, I used as much original LR, sand, and water as possible and it sat fallow for 4 weeks. Treating my DT would not of been my first choice as I do have a 40 gallon QT tank set up and running. Its alot cheaper to treat 40 gallons rather than 120 ++ but putting five fish into a QT tank seemed not a good idea at the time. (now maybe I'm not so sure)

I treat the tank with the entire box of Furan 2, add a Maxijet powerhead with an airline attached to help put oxygen in the water. Yesterday (Saturday) I come home after being gone all day and the Emperor is flat on the sand struggling to breathe with his gills obviously red - the first symptom I ever seen on that fish. (shown in last pic of Part 1 thread)

So, I get a clear bowl of RO/DI and match temp and PH best I could and do a FW dip for about 3 minutes. The thought being that maybe it has flukes or something and the dip might buy me some time. Having to follow through on my first decision which was to medicate thinking it might be Columnaris and could spread to the others, I add the second box (10 packets) of Furan 2

After dip I place Emperor into a "net breeder" and the DT near - not directly in front of - maxijet that is kicking out tons of champagne bubbles. Treatment seems to of helped but I'm not hopeful. This morning the Emperor was dead.


Things I'm trying to learn from this experience include, why I have 8 fish bought from fellow reefers that are alive in the same tanks where two of the three bought from same LFS are dead with another still sporting a cottony mustache ?

I purposely waited 10 + days after juv. emperor arrived at LFS because original shipment of fish ordered died within 3 days at LFS. I looked the fish over the very best I could and it appeared to of eaten food that was thrown in to store tank prior to my purchase - the fish ate for three days in my tank also. I'm left with the opinion not to buy fish there anymore as I feel they're not taking care of their stock through proper acclimation and maintenance. I should of ran out the door empty handed when I was encouraged to buy "Metronidazole" along with the fish as a "safety net" for my expensive fish. (keeping in mind when I point my finger at LFS there's three pointing back at me)

How should I of handled the addition of fish differently ? If keeping aggression to a minimum is important I don't see how adding one at a time could of been proper. Not to mention where to keep the others in the mean time and possibilities of their stress.

Should I of put all the fish in quarantine together rather than in the DT ? That didn't seem smart given that the DT was empty. I guess in hindsight I should of only bought one fish from LFS and QTed it - actually I had ordered 5 fish but only took home two that looked good.

Should I do anything with the dead emperor to try and confirm cause of death ? I believe it was a gill bacteria problem.

Should I continue course of treatment which is a 25% water change tonight followed by another box of Furan 2, followed by another box 24 hours later, followed by another 25% wc and carbon ? The three fish from the local reefer appear to be doing fine, and they are eating brine shrimp with some Metronidazole - the blueangel from the LFS still has 'stache and I haven't seen him eat in a day and a half but he's swimming around pretty good.

Should I be concerned about a nitrifying bacteria issue caused by meds ?? Box states it won't harm bio filter but if so what would be a good addition to help boost nitro bacteria.

I know one thing I'm gonna start doing and that is including a FW dip into my acclimation procedure, I didn't realize how common flukes and other parasites were - although in hindsight I don't know why ANY documentaion regarding acclimation doesn't include FW dip as a mandatory part of the process.

Well, I'm sure there's more but I'm running out of gas and this post is way too long....sorry 'bout that. Thanks in advance for your reply.


__________________
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Temptation resisted is the true measure of character..... (needless to say I'm lacking)

Hobby Experience: Noob !
Current Tanks: 120 Reef, 40B Reef, 40 QT
Interests: travel

 

[leebca]

I see several problematic sources as well as some unknowns of your experience with these fishes:

1. Rushing
2. Too much bioload on the system at one time
3. I have no test results to confirm water quality
4. Two weeks at the LFS -- it means nothing -- the fish were not properly quarantined
5. The fish may not have been acclimated properly
6. General description of some aspects of the system imply a less-than-optimal system in operation
7. Diagnosis of the fish problems was poor
8. Helping the fish properly thus followed as being poor (poor treatment) because of 7.
9. The stocking limit is in question
10. The size aquarium is not good for the large Angels in a couple of years so why not begin with the right size (or choose other fishes)

It would take pages to address each matter. And I'm not going to do that. My recommendations are all written out on how things should have gone in the following posts. Just compare what is written there with your approach.
What is Water Quality
Fish Stocking Limit – for FO and FOWLR
Should I buy that fish?
Fish Acclimation Procedure
A Quarantine Procedure

The above links takes the reader to posts with additional links within those posts. All need to be read and understood.

On the side of brevity:
a. Healthy fish should have been obtained one at a time and quarantined for no less than 6 weeks.
b. Adding a lot of fish in at the same time because of aggression can be handled, but I have to ask if you suspect aggression, why choose those fishes to begin with? In any event, the plan was not a good one.
c. After implementing the plan, things compounded.
d. When the first signs of a problem occurred, you tried your own diagnosis. This was a delay in getting the right help to the fish. I understand your attempts to help them, but diagnosing marine fish is really hard unless you're an experienced vet. In the hobby, we do the next best thing and that is seek sound advice. Still, that is no guarantee.

Your ideas and thoughts about the matter have merit, but before you come to any conclusions, I'd recommend the readings, since the plan and the implementation of the plan deviates significantly from usual ornamental marine husbandry.

In this medium we are not 'face to face' but I am trying to be helpful and definitely not judgmental. There are so many subjects in your post that handling them all in one thread wouldn't help others much. If you care to pick one detail you want to focus on and try to better understand, start a new thread with just that single subject and I'll elaborate. But first, do go through those linked posts since most of your answers are there.

Unless the dead fish was properly (chemically) preserved, there is little that can be learned from the corpse, and even less in pathological cause of death.

 

[whowadat]

Thanks for the input, I'll start another thread on a specific issue.

Mike