Death to all hard corals in my tank?

[ac7av]

Back several years ago I had lots of purple, red and green coralline algae growing on the rock and glass. I also had some nice LPS corals that thrived in my tank before taking it down to do some major changes. My currant set up has been running now for 10 months and I can not keep any hard corals alive for more then 5 minutes. You would think I just put them in a tank that is just screwed up beyond supporting life, they die off that fast. Leathers are doing very nice and the RBTA I have looks great. I have only green coralline algae growing in the tank and seems to want to grow on the glass more then the rock. I have a piece of rock in the tank that the nem came on that had a fair amount of purple coralline algae on it that has also dissipated or faded to rock color now in less then 2 months. I don’t know if that’s important, just an observation. The changes that I’ve made is to the water and the salinity, I use RO-DI water now and was just using tap water before, and since I was primarily having a fish tank not corals this time I have been running the salinity at 1.020 because from my research I believe this is better for the fish and the suppliers that most of these fish came from also run there system at this level. As far as the levels in the tank they have been stable but maybe they are out of whack some how that will prevent any hard corals from living at all let alone thriving. Here are the test results that I currently have
Specific gravity 1.020
Temp 78
Ph 8.2
Ammonia no trace
Nitrate no trace
Nitrite no trace
Phosphates fluctuates between no trace and .25 ppm
dKH 10
Calcium 380
Magnesium 1150
What do you think and where should I start? I would like to have a few easer LPS corals in the tank to liven it up a bit but like I said currently the way the tank is if I try to put something like that in the tank its dead before it hits the water.

 

[Krish]

Sorry to hear...Have you changed your lighting recently? With coraline, the color of it all depends on the lighting and the intensity from what I can remember which is why you see different shades of coraline at different depths going from purples to pinks to greens etc. In addition, what are your alk levels? I think you may need to raise your salinty levels a bit. Seems kinda on the low side for corals.

Just a few thoughts.


Ps. I was going to say your canister filter might be cleaning but I said I better not

 

[ac7av]

I’m not sure what the alk is if this is something different from the carbonate hardness test at 179 ppm I think is the translation.
The lights are all less then 6 months old. I kind of get the feeling that they me be almost too bright but I know I don’t have as many watts flying around in lights then many others have. 1134 watts total. 3X250 watt DE MH bulbs, the center bulb is 15,000K and the outer bulbs are 20,000K. 4X96 watt PC 50/50 bulbs. I think they are 10,000k and 430nm.

 

[Faciosity]

First thing I thought is salinity way too low. You should be between 1.024 and 1.026 for a reef tank. Salinity is a very crucial element in getting your corals acclimated properly. Wherever your corals are coming from, I guarentee they have a higher salinity, so the drop when putting them into the tank is causing massive stress.

 

[Skimmy]

agreed, with the salinity that low, and the mag that low, it makes sense that your sps literally melt in the tank...

 

[NWDiver]

An interesting question Erik, I'll ride along to hear what the experts have to say.
I've had my 120 for 8 months, and I lost much of the red\purple coraline after 3 months as I was not testing for Mg and it dropped just below 1000. I have had all parameters looking great for the last 5 months and I still have VERY slow coraline growth. Pink on the glass, and deep red and purple in the very shaded areas of the tank. On the upside, I have many sps/lps corals that are growing great. At least I don't have to spend hours scraping the glass
I have two thoughts: If your tank has everything in the generally accepted "good" zone EXCEPT salinity I would have to look hard at that as a cause, or at least try to rule it out. Your point that fish pros keep their tanks at a lower salinity is valid, but I'm guessing that they might not be keeping stony or lps coral in the same tanks as the fish.
My other thought is: I'm sure you run carbon, but is it enough to keep the leather toxins down for the lps? I have heard that leathers and some other softies are tough on stony coral.
-Todd

 

[ac7av]

I’ve seen a lot of numbers flying around on the site about what’s good and not good. What is the minimum / maximum area to get into? I just hate changing anything in the tank because it just never seems to end well for me. When I got the new nem I worked on raising the salinity up to 1.023 because I knew it was from a tank with higher salinity. Every thing else in my tank on the coral side has looked under the weather since until now that I have the salinity back down where it was before I moved it. Aside from the salinity, are the numbers I posted within an expectable range that should support this kind of coral? As far as the leathers, I really don’t have much. If you stand back to far you would hardly see them except for the big toadstool. I do run carbon and I don’t remember exactly how much but I think its 18oz container and change it every 2 to 3 weeks if I don’t forget to. That’s pretty much what happened to the monti cap I got from JasonD, it just faded away with in 2 week. It was evident in 2 days it was not happy.

 

[NC2WA]

Erik,

First thing that I saw was salinity, Calcium, and Mg too low for hard corals.

Salinity should be 1.024-1.026
Ca should be a 410-450ppm
Mg should be around 1300-1350

I would slowly (meaning several days) raise the salinity to your desired level, then would increase Mg next. Personally, I use Kent Tech M, but whatever brand you decide on, a lot of it will be needed. Finally, up Calcium to a minimum of 410.

Key with hard corals is these levels need to be stable so what ever level works for you just make sure you maintain that level.

HTH,
Kirk

 

[Krish]

Erik,

First thing that I saw was salinity, Calcium, and Mg too low for hard corals.

Salinity should be 1.024-1.026
Ca should be a 410-450ppm
Mg should be around 1300-1350

I would slowly (meaning several days) raise the salinity to your desired level, then would increase Mg next. Personally, I use Kent Tech M, but whatever brand you decide on, a lot of it will be needed. Finally, up Calcium to a minimum of 410.

Key with hard corals is these levels need to be stable so what ever level works for you just make sure you maintain that level.

HTH,
Kirk

Also, to add to what Kirk posted, coraline uses calcium as well for it's growth so keep that in mind.

 

[NWDiver]

Alk: 9-11 dkh You are perfect
pH: It seems to me it is more important to keep stable than at a single number, no swing larger than .2 in a day. Should be ~ >8.0 and <8.5
Ca: 425-450 (This will be easier to reach if your mag is "on") You are a little low here.
Mg: 1350 or 3x your Ca You are pretty low here.
Salinity: 1.024 to 1.026 Yeah, as you are aware, most would say VERY low.
Nitrate: With as many fish as you have I'm surprised that you are at 0. I think I would want to have another test kit (you can borrow one of mine) or take it in and have it checked. its not impossible, but if your kit is off, high nitrate could make your coral pretty crabby.
Alleopathy (coral chemical attack) might be a stretch, but I thought I would mention it. It seems like you have that covered.
Faciosity makes an excellent point, even if salinity that low is ok for hard coral, I would think the acclimation process would have to be very very slow.
Check bulk reef supply's calculator to see how much to supplement to reach the ideal levels of Ca and Mg.

 

[ac7av]

I believe all these elements that you all are saying it too low are all in the salt mix. I will test again once I get the salinity up to 1.026 before I start adding anything else. I will start tomorrow by adding a cup a day of salt with the top off water. I don’t know how long that will tank to get the salt up to that level but I expect a couple of weeks or so. I have two test kits for the nitrates and they both read zero. I have the red sea kit and API kit. The only fluctuations I have are with the phosphates. You have to remember I have way more rock in this tank then most people have too + 40lb in the sump of that very pours lava rock that is like a rock sponge. The stuff almost floats ( some does) when dry to help. All the water that goes threw the overflow goes threw that rock. I just took a fresh test for you on the nitrates and I think you can see even on the picture that the liquid in the tube is exactly the same as 0ppm on the card. There is not a trace amount on these test kits of nitrates in this tank.

 

[ReefLogic]

I would search for any metal hose clamps or screws that mighta fell in your sump. My bet is metal.

 

[ac7av]

Well I hope not. It would not be possible to see in my case. On a side note I didn’t employ any hose clamps that were not stainless and I only have two under the tank and they are big (3in clamps) and still where I put them on a coupling on the drain and 12 inches over the water surface of the sump. If a screw or some other item fell into the sump I would never be able to see it with out complete dismantle, and I’m not prepared to do that yet. I will be removing everything soon when I get the time. I have to cut a hole in the bottom of the stand for some structural support.

 

[NC2WA]

FWIW, you should only increase your salinity .001 a day..so 1.020 to 1.021, then 1.021 to 1.022, etc.. so if you want to go to 1.026, it will take you at least 6 days to reach that level.

this is for the benefit of the fish and that no stress occurs to them.

 

[NWDiver]

Since you used two valid test kits I think you can rule out nitrates.
Like I said, not impossible to have 0. It sounds like you have great rock filtration!
Yep, the salt has all of the components on the list (or at least affects those numbers).
I have no doubt that most salt-mix out there will not test to the numbers considered perfect, in fact I had a batch that tested 950 Mg.
Even if your salt tested perfect in every way before you added it to your tank, each tank uses critical components at a different rate and you can end up low before your next water change.
I now use salinity and it has the tested numbers (spread) printed on each bucket. I still test the mix water to see if it matches what I expect, and I dose to hit the target numbers.
It sounds like your plan is good, always best to fix one possible problem at a time and see what you get for a result.
Not a bad idea to have a friend or the lfs test your water for the usuals and salinity to see if they match your results. Twice now I have had bad tests; a bad refractometer that zeroed fine, but the ATC did not work, and a pH probe that was only a few months old was way off already.
Which reminds me, refractometer or swing arm? Since you plan to do some critical changes, you might consider making sure that you are calibrated.

-Todd

 

[lvsuckerfish]

I believe the proper way to test with the API test kits is to look down with the top off the tube, against a White paper to get the correct color. to get the color not from the side. judging by the photo I am guessing they Nitrates are about 10 which is still not bad.

 

[ac7av]

I believe the proper way to test with the API test kits is to look down with the top off the tube, against a White paper to get the correct color. to get the color not from the side. judging by the photo I am guessing they Nitrates are about 10 which is still not bad.

That doesn’t make any sense to test it looking threw the opening at the top of the tube. Even the test using new saltwater mix with a known 0ppm nitrate looks like a much higher level then it is because your looking threw a deeper sample. It does not say to test that way in the instructions but to be on the safe side I called and left a message with the company and send an email to the tech support with this questions to insure the proper testing on this kit. I will let you know when I hear back about that.

I compared the fresh salt water mix with the tank water side by side and there is no visual difference in the color that I can tell with my eye.

 

[FreakinReefin]

I have been reading this thread since it has started. I can tell you that my life had been a lot like yours with SPS until I realized how REALLY important the Cal/dKh/Mag relationship is; as well as the salinity. Trust that what these experienced reefers are telling you is true. You NEED to get your salinity up and you NEED to get your levels in check. I know that you have other corals in your tank that are doing okay...well, great. But what you are doing now is not working for SPS; therefore, changes need to be made. It's like what Adam has in his signature

Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

(No I'm not calling you insane...just trying to help you from getting there)

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
All your parameters are acceptable for keeping SPS corals healthy and growing with the exception of SPG and phosphates. SPG should be maintained at 1.025-1.026. Phosphates should be undetectable. One other note:
.001 per 24 hours should be the maximum increase in SPG.
The measurement of SPG is not just the measurement of sodium chloride (commonly called salt) but many other elements that stony corals need to grow. So low SPG means that other elements are low also (except the ones you are dosing).

The Sarcophyton Genus is capable of producing large quantities of Terpenes that can affect some species of LPS and SPS corals. Typically not all animals are affected even of the same species but Terpenes can inhibit growth and even kill a wide variety of LPS and SPS corals.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[lvsuckerfish]

sorry I had my test kits confused it is elos that you look from the top down not API I had my daughter remind me as she is the one that does all my test for my tanks.