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ldrhawke

John
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
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221
Location
Saint Augustine, Florida
dgasmd said:
Corals:

Well, the last few weeks/months have been very frustrating with the tank. First of, corals have not been growing like they should. Then, they start to RTN lowly for no apparent reason. Over the last few weeks, I have lost 30-0 acros altogether. Not a particular type seem to be affected more than others. They all just rtn over a couple of days time. Then, on to the next one. I have tried to save a few by cutting seemingly healthy branches and gluing them elsewhere, but they still die eventually. Colors have been pretty mediocre at best too. Any ideas here???

...................

My personal take on RTN.

RTN can be caused by numerous things and it itself isn't a single problem and is caused by other problems. It is often set off by stress. From what I have read and experienced, it is normally a bacteria infection. Numerous different types of bacteria can cause it to develop and spread. Although it is frequently related to poor water quality, which is what sets it off by putting a stress on the coral. Like ich, I think bad bacteria is always present in our tanks, it just takes a shock and weakening of the corals or fish to give the bad bacteria the opportunity to bloom.

Cleaning up my system a few months ago, I pulled out a large clump of macro algae rooted into the substrate in the fuge. I also remove a couple of pieces of live rock that had a large mass of sponge growing inbetween them, and it was pulled apart when I removed the rock. I believe this is what released a lot of junk or poison into the tank. The next day, I noticed a large slime spot of RTN on edge of a pretty and rapidly growing orange Montipora capricornis. Over the next few days, the RTN then spread onto several other acropora, killing them from the bottom up. It was obvious it was going to destroy most of my acros if I didn't find some way to stop it. I did major water changes but that did little apparent good. The thought of breaking off all the acro tips and restarting them didn't set well.

I hate the use of antibiotics, on people or in tanks, because of all the problems they can cause by killing the good bacteria as well as the bad. This in itself can cause even more stress on the system. As a last resort I used some REDSLIME antibiotic I happened to have .....to my surprise, a single dose stopped the RTN spread in it's tracks. I now have a number of acros dead on the bottom but growing well again on all the tips. No sign of RTN progression after several months.

I had read about the dozens of different types of RTN and most of what I have read states is mostly bacteria related. The postive results I got from using an antibiotic confirmed this too me. That does not mean RTN cannot also be the result of other water quality problems. The wide temperature and water quality swings you have had most likely started it.

But, with that said; a lot of people have difficulty with SPS until their tank becomes very stable and are well established and over a year old. A new tank with the introduction of new fish, with the rapidly changing bioload, can also be the stress problem. Fish release a large amount of liquid ammonia waste which a new tank is often not capable of processing quickly. I have come to believe, in a new tank set up SPS have a greater change of succeeding if the fish load is very small. As the tank ages, and the good bacteria is established, more fish can be added.

I read where reefers set up a new SPS tank by taking a few pieces of live rock and put new SPS into it and have no problems. I think they are the exception to the rule.

If I were you I would stay away from SPS until your tank is older, more bioload stable, and you have the other equipment issues worked out. Loosing 30 nice SPS hurts, let alone the kick in the pocket book. I'm sorry and feel the pain. I've been there.:cry:
 
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ldrhawke said:
My personal take on RTN.
As a last resort I used some REDSLIME antibiotic I happened to have .....to my surprise, a single dose stopped the RTN spread in it's tracks. I now have a number of acros dead on the bottom but growing well again on all the tips. No sign of RTN progression after several months.
I've been there.:cry:

I haven't that one before. What redslime antibiotic did you use? Do you have a link?
 
RedEyeReef said:
I haven't that one before. What redslime antibiotic did you use? Do you have a link?

Let me again restate.....I do not recommend the use of antibiotics in a reef tank. It worked in my case, but it was a last resort. I am not sure the exact antibiotic that is in this product. and there may be other that could work better. The use of antibiotics is a serious step and can have very negative impacts on the whole tanks bacteria population. After I used it I stopped feeding the fish for 4 days, because I felt it probably decimated a lot of good bacteria and feeding could pollute the tank until the bacteria repopulated.

In my case, one dose stopped the RTN progression completely. One of the risks of using any antibiotic, and if it is not done properly, is you that can produce a strain of bacteria that is now resistant to the antibiotic.

On the other hand I don't feel very many people have the slightest idea of the diversity of bacteria always present in our tanks and its ability to cope with anything we do. In reef keeping we always talk about a special nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria as if they were a single strain unique to what takes place in a reef tank. I think you will find bacteria in a reef tank to be far more adaptive and diverse, as is stated in the article I have attached, showing how many unique and different species that are in a single spoon full of earth.



This is one of many places UltraLife RedSlime can be purchased.


http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_additives_ultralife.asp?CartId=
 
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I'll do my best to keep the thread from derailing, but if you'd like to continue this discussion I can start a new thread in Advanced Topics and copy our posts over to it.

LDRHawke said:
I think bad bacteria is always present in our tanks, it just takes a shock and weakening of the corals or fish to give the bad bacteria the opportunity to bloom.

What is a "bad" bacteria? How can you differentiate between a good and bad strain of bacteria in the marine environment?

LDRHawke said:
Cleaning up my system a few months ago, I pulled out a large clump of macro algae rooted into the substrate in the fuge. I also remove a couple of pieces of live rock that had a large mass of sponge growing inbetween them, and it was pulled apart when I removed the rock. I believe this is what released a lot of junk or poison into the tank. The next day, I noticed a large slime spot of RTN on edge of a pretty and rapidly growing orange Montipora capricornis. Over the next few days, the RTN then spread onto several other acropora, killing them from the bottom up. It was obvious it was going to destroy most of my acros if I didn't find some way to stop it. I did major water changes but that did little apparent good.

I would suspect this to be more of the cause than a bacterial infection. Was the macro algae a caulerpa? The toxins released from the caulerpa, especially if a large clump, combined with nasties released from disturbing a large mass of sponge probably was enough for the corals to RTN.

LDRHawke said:
As the tank ages, and the good bacteria is established, more fish can be added.

I think it is as you posted....more to do with the tank being stable as opposed to whether or not it is good or bad bacteria. Bacteria population stability definately will help the tank to maintain itself, and then allow for SPS to grow nicely without having to deal with different fluxuations.

Also, I feel it is very difficult to compare land based bacteria with those in marine environments (even though your point was showing the bacterial diversity?). There is a good book that talks about bacteria and marine sediments called "Microbial Ecology of the Oceans" by Kirchman.

I'm glad the red slime remover seemed to work well for you. I wonder what kind of role the water changes played into stopping the RTN, compared to the slime remover. I understand the RTN didn't seem effected by the water changes, but do you think it could have been "in the works" in stopping the RTN prior to the dose of red slime remover? Just some random thoughts...
 
I think this is more of a which came first thing (chicken vs egg). Bacteria are not a living coral eater, but rather natures way of reducing the dieing. The bottom line to that analysis would be "would the bacteria cause the RTN"? or is "The bacteria cleaning up after the RTN has occured"?? I have not read any literature on the statement of bacteria causing the RTN,If you have some I would love the read.
In both the wild and in our reef tanks parameter swings are the number one cause of RTN, then other stress related events. I guess an effect could occur if you killed all the bacteria in your tank so they could not go after the dieing tissue and thus continue the process, but that does seem a tad harsh. Just killing the bacteria in the guts could in of itself be a larger stressor. Not something I would attemp on a tank basis, maybe on an individual basis where it could be controlled.
In light of Albreto's mechanical issues I would lean more towards the PArameter swings in regards to temp, possibly ph (as they are related). On the use of Ferric hydroxide (phosban or simular) it will not directly effect your corals. If to much is introduced as a particular point in time it will cause a large flux downward in your alk and thus your PH. The ph will return to normal a half day later but the large swing is enough to kick a coral in the pants and cause enough stress to make it so the coral can not recover from it.
As we all know SPS corals are as easy to grow as any coral, BUT are much more suceptable to mortality due to swings in thier enviroment. In Alberto's case it would seem that his tank is more then mature enough to keep and grow them but with some of the mechanical issues it has put the old "out of left field" hit into play. Something most folks will go through as they spend more time in the hobby.


Mike
 
NaH2O said:
I'll do my best to keep the thread from derailing, but if you'd like to continue this discussion I can start a new thread in Advanced Topics and copy our posts over to it.

I was thinking the same thing....this has gotten a little off topic






What is a "bad" bacteria? How can you differentiate between a good and bad strain of bacteria in the marine environment?

I'm not a biologist, but my definition is simple: Good uses the waste in a tank as a source of food.....Bad starts to use the tissue of the animals we grow as a source of food.




I would suspect this to be more of the cause than a bacterial infection. Was the macro algae a caulerpa? The toxins released from the caulerpa, especially if a large clump, combined with nasties released from disturbing a large mass of sponge probably was enough for the corals to RTN.

Yes it was caulerpa and you restated the same conclusion I reached.


Also, I feel it is very difficult to compare land based bacteria with those in marine environments (even though your point was showing the bacterial diversity?). There is a good book that talks about bacteria and marine sediments called "Microbial Ecology of the Oceans" by Kirchman.

My point was to show recent scientific conclusive findings, using improvee technology for testing, that bacteria is far more diverse than even biologists have ever given it credit for in their past studies and research.

There is no logical reason not to believe the same diversity can and will be shown for marine bacteria, as a soil borne with the improved testing methods they described by using DNA.

My point is simply that bacteria is far more complex than anyone has described in studies in the past using conventional analysis methods, in earth or marine studies. Conversations and conclusions on the topic of marine bacteria and the role it plays in maintaining a reef tank are far too simplistic when we group it into oxygen and non-oxygen consuming strains of bacteria. What we often discuss is not two stains but is closer to 2 to the twenty third power strains. It is a totally different way of looking at the topic.

I'm glad the red slime remover seemed to work well for you. I wonder what kind of role the water changes played into stopping the RTN, compared to the slime remover. I understand the RTN didn't seem effected by the water changes, but do you think it could have been "in the works" in stopping the RTN prior to the dose of red slime remover? Just some random thoughts...

I saw no slow down of the rapid progression of RTN from water changes over 48 hours and an immediate positive response to the antibiotic. Seeing that RTN is largely bacteria in nature, this only make sense.
 
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mojoreef said:
I think this is more of a which came first thing (chicken vs egg). Bacteria are not a living coral eater, but rather natures way of reducing the dieing. The bottom line to that analysis would be "would the bacteria cause the RTN"? or is "The bacteria cleaning up after the RTN has occured"?? I have not read any literature on the statement of bacteria causing the RTN,If you have some I would love the read.
.......


Mike

Mike,

I don't disagree with your basic premise....Stress is often what gives most diseases the opportunity to do their damage.

To make a poor analogy: if I cut my self with a knife and I died from ganggreen because the wound got infected....you conclusion would be the knife caused my death. And you would be right......and wrong.....
:rolleyes:

Factors in White Syndromes: by Borneman

"Because so little is known about the cause and pathology of the many diseases, it is difficult to determine what the primary or secondary causes might be, including the influences of various stressors. In particular, there is a great deal of question as to the roles of pathogens and other biotic factors versus environmental stressors (abiotic factors). There is probably significant interaction between numerous factors to produce a disease condition. In seems to be a general consensus that for most coral disease, new pathogens never before seen are not to blame. Rather, the microbial ecology of corals is coming under study, and research is needed to determine various things; including whether pathogens are direct pathogens, opportunists, or normally associated with corals but causing disease because of chronic or acute stress to a habitat or individual coral colony. For at least one disease (bacterial bleaching), increasing temperature results in virulence genes getting "turned on" and resulting in pathogenicity. For at least four others -- stress related necrosis, SDR, neoplasia, and hyperplasia -- pathogens do not appear to be required at all, although further study is required.

There have been a number of attempts, though by no means exhaustive, to determine the role of other variables in coral disease. In particular, the role of coastal nutrients and effluxes have been examined to determine if a role exists between the reports of coral disease and the degree of nearness of affected sites to the coast. Similarly, studies have attempted to establish a correlation between variables such as season and temperature, with mixed results. Chemical and thermal effluents have been shown to play a role in several diseases, although it is not determined if the disease was attributed to the influence itself through direct toxicity or killing. Doldrums, or periods of low water movement have also been implicated in increased incidence of coral disease, as well as damage from storms. Bleaching has been suggested to increase the susceptibility of corals to disease. Other biotic factors have been suggested in increasing or decreasing susceptibility to coral disease, including the presence or absence of commensal crabs, predation by snails, fishes, and sea stars, and the deposition of fecal material by fish and sediments by coastal efflux or storms.

White Syndromes in Aquarium Corals:

Most of the research in coral disease has been done in the Caribbean. This is also the area where the greatest effect of coral diseases has been seen on wild populations. The Red Sea, also highly impacted by various stresses, runs a distant second in terms of study. More recently, areas in the Philippines and the Great Barrier Reef in Australia have begun reporting increased numbers and types of coral diseases. It is probably likely that more study from this vast region will be forthcoming. As a consequence, however, the relation of coral disease to aquarium corals is difficult since most aquarium corals are not Atlantic or Caribbean species. Coupled with the relative lack of knowledge of the disease, the difficulty of diagnosing a particular disease, especially the white syndromes, may be impractical to impossible for the aquarist. It is my impression that the majority of problems that result in signs of whitening on aquarium corals are not diseases. Of those that are diseases, Shut Down Reaction (this is called RTN by aquarists) is unquestionably the most common, yet appears to be one of the least common in the wild. I have also seen and experienced many cases of what would appear to be bacterial bleaching and WBD, although the actual diagnosis is unconfirmed in all cases. This is not only because studies have not been done to confirm the diagnosis, but also because we don’t yet know what causes the disease.



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Treatment:

Unfortunately, because the causative agents are not known, and because diagnosing a disease is so difficult, treatment protocols are extremely limited and experimental. For conditions that show signs of a slowly progressing white band line, there are several possible options. The first is fragmentation. Often, conditions that do not seem to allow for the health of a colony prove adequate for smaller fragments. If there is an associated pathogen, fragmentation well into healthy tissue may remove that element. Of course, fragmentation involves both injury and stress. Conditions should be optimal for the resulting fragment, and I feel that areas of exposed tissue should be sealed as in the following method described.

The second treatment method is sealing the affected area. Use of adhesives to seal a disease band has resulted in successful trials in the aquarium and in the wild. Epoxy putty or superglue can be applied across the entire disease band and into healthy tissue. This seems to result in stopping disease progression in many cases. It is important to completely seal the band, leaving no exposed areas or "gaps." Epoxy putty must be pressed firmly down onto the coral surface to ensure a good seal. Superglue has been used as a field dressing for cuts and wounds, and it can stick to moist and slippery surfaces. As such, I find that, where applicable, it is superior to epoxy putty for sealing tissue. In light of my comments above, I feel that coral fragments should have their broken and exposed ends well sealed with superglue as a prophylactic method. I think this is even the case in the course of normal fragmentation for asexual propagation to reduce the risk of potential infection.

A third treatment method that I find to often halt disease progression with many white syndromes is isolation. I have found remarkable success in simply removing an affected colony to a quarantine tank with strong water flow and newly made seawater. I would rather not speculate on the rationale or potential reasons for its effectiveness, but it is impressively successful. Once the band line has stopped its progression, and the coral appear healthy or has begun growing or recovering exposed skeleton, it can generally be moved back to the display tank without incident.

As for using medications, antibiotics, and other substances as treatments, I would refer interested parties to protocols outlined in Borneman (2001) and Borneman (2002). I strongly caution against the use of antibiotics to treat corals blindly or as a prophylactic measure. I urge anyone so inclined to use such experimental protocols only after exhausting other methods, to use great care in the exposure of anything other than the affected coral to antibiotics, and to take great pains in the proper disposal of treatment water following the treatment regimen. I would also urge those so inclined to keep careful records on the protocol and its results, documenting as much as possible, and reporting the results to ensure that such trials have value. I would be happy to act as the recipient for such records.



Conclusion:

Within this series, I have explained how the appearance of pale or white areas on coral can be the result of either bleaching or tissue loss. Bleaching is perhaps the most easily determined since living tissue remains on the coral. Tissue loss that results in exposed skeleton can be caused by many factors including mechanical abrasion or injury, predation, starvation (recession), chemical toxicity, and disease. Coral disease is often attributed as a cause of tissue loss when it may be more likely that other factors are involved or are causative. Even if coral disease is a factor in tissue loss, the relative state of knowledge of these conditions makes it very difficult to ascertain the identification, cause or solution to the disease. Each case requires careful observation and consideration. A systematic approach that addresses all potential factors and variables is probably an aquarist’s best method to determining what is happening, and in providing a solution that minimizes or halts any further loss of the integrity of the colony, as a whole.



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To make a poor analogy: if I cut my self with a knife and I died from ganggreen because the wound got infected....you conclusion would be the knife caused my death. And you would be right......and wrong.....
I liked my chicken and the egg one better:p :D

First off ldrhawke thank you for a well written and thought out post. I am familar with Rosenbergs work, actually he is but one of a host of biologists that are pursueing this route. The bottom line to this whole study is that this bacteria strain (which does not even come from a reef) has only been found in one coral and no other?!? In fact, with in hundreds upon hundred of scientific studies conducted on bleaching events and so on, no bacterial agents were found to be present. Its a case of picking out the neddle in the hay stack study and running with it, at least in my opinion.
What we do know is that their are hundreds of studies that prove and reprove the concept that enviromental stressors are the cause of Bleaching and rtn. Secondary bacterial infections have even in some case proven to be more of a helper then something that adds to the problem. Removal of decaying tissue prior to its spread. Even with all the studies currently undergoing with this concept of freak and individual bacterial strains per coral species, the studies only deal with common diseases such as white and black band and white spot. If one looks at the effects of the diseases on the corals in the wild they hardly look like what we witness as RTN in our tanks.
Now in talking about all that we have completely thrown out hndreds upon hundreds of more studies done on the corals own mechanisms for dealing with enviromental stressors such as UV, temp sensitive enzymes, Oxygen saturation and so on which are all internal natural stragies used by the coral to combat enviromental changes. Then you need to look at the simular stratagies used by the zoox with in the coral??.

Anyway some solid info may one day come from these studies with some corals (hopefuly the ones we actually keep), but from what is out thier right now, it is purely speculative (at best).
Now if we look at the use of anti bacterial agents used to cure RTN, we might and most probibly are opening up the coral to a whole new host of stressors and enviromental changes. Its a tough call to make on what is speculative at best.


Good food for thought


Mike
 
mojoreef said:
............ In fact, with in hundreds upon hundred of scientific studies conducted on bleaching events and so on, no bacterial agents were found to be present................

Now if we look at the use of anti bacterial agents used to cure RTN, we might and most probibly are opening up the coral to a whole new host of stressors and enviromental changes. Its a tough call to make on what is speculative at best.
Mike




To paraphase a well known reef keeper.......I'd love to read the hundreds and hundered of scientific studies that state bacteria does not play a role in RTN.

It appears the old school approach for controlling RTN by cutting off the remaining good coral and/ or using an expoxy barrier to stop the spread, are all things that would normally be done to physically stop the spread of a bacteria disease. This approach would have little bearing on the shock that may have started RTN.

I agree and already commented at length on the risks of using antibiotics.

I do know for a fact in my tank, Red Slime antibiotic stopped the spread of RTN in my tank on my coral. In fact, the SPS are now starting to grow back over the areas killed by the RTN. The water changes had virtually no effect on it's continuing to spread over the coral and killing it.

What I don't understand is the obvious reluctance to accept this and the strong possibilty the RTN is bacteria related. What is the downside of exploring the possibility that there may be a way of treating it when it occurs other than chopping up and throwing out all the coral in the tank?

:doubt:
 
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LDRHawke just talking with you my friend thats all. If this one day pans out then it might be a sound solution. As per experimentation that is all good to me, I do it all the time myself. BUT in saying that I always think its best for folks wishing to do so to know all the facts involved. In this case we dont even have evidence that bacteria has anything to do with rtn, some folks might want to know that prior to entering a experiment. Now with all sides of the story being put on the table folks can make an educated choice as to if its worth while or not. Myself for one would be willing to give it a shot for my own interest.

On the studies thier are a lot of them available on the net if you do a search. Even Erics article and the studies put out by Rosenberg state thier is no corralation and that the vast majority of of scientific study proves enviromental impacts.



its all good
 
This has always only been a conversation to enlighten. I agree fully some sort of environmental impact may weaken a coral's immune system and initiate RTN. In my particular case it was my releasing a lot of bacteria and/or poison when I moved some things around in the sump and tank that stressed my Montipora capricornis. I could see the spot on it's edge where the coral was releasing heavy slime and fighting something. I immediately saw the RTN begin and start spreading, killing the coral as it went, the day after I upset the system.

The attached photo shows the dead calcium base. You can see how the new coral, that remained after treating with RedSlime, is starting to spread back over the remains. My only regret is that I waited three days before using the antibiotic.
 
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No its a great topic IDRhawke lets continue it. Thier is some great info on a corals immune system I have somewhere also. lets see if we can put it together.


Mike
 
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