H.magnifica health & melanism in Percs?

[Maxx]

I was reading this thread

Yellow H.magnifica

And came across these pictures:

They are the same pair of Rod’s Onyx clowns, they just lost the black when introduced to a new H.magnifica anemone. The new anemone is apparently newly captive and not a healthy specimen from another aquarium newly introduced to these clowns.

The clowns are a mated pair and diet has not been changed, the top picture is before, the bottom is most recent.

These pictures reminded me of my own interesting episode with “Brown” Rod’s Onyx clowns.

My Rod’s Onyx were purchased in early 05 and my H.magnifica was purchased in March of 06. I lost the male shown in the first pic in early 06 after the picture was taken. I purchased another Rod's Onyx male in July of 06.

My clowns eventually became a mated pair, but turned brown for about a year in 2007. They have since turned back to the beautiful deep black that Rod’s Onyx clowns are known for.

They've been with that anemone since I got it. But for some reason around one year in with it, they lost the black and went brown...

One month with Ritteri before being a mated pair 04-06:

Brown phase while spawning, at 1.5 years with anemone in Sept 07:

Female in 09

Dec of last year, 2010

Yesterday....

Same anemone and female clown for the entire series of pics....Same male clown from 2nd pic on. Diet has been pretty much the same the entire time. Uncooked shrimp pieces, uncooked scallop pieces, occasional mix of PE mysis, Hikari mysid, Rod's food, & spirolina enriched brine shrimp....

The female is now pretty much solid black....what isnt black is either white stripes or orange face & fins

One thing I realized while reading Minh’s thread is that the anemone "sting" did not affect me the first year or two I had it, which happened to be the same window the clowns went through their weird brown phase. The tentacles were sticky and the feeding response was good, but it didnt burn me.

After that two year period, and currently, the anemone will burn me and leave a nasty welt for a couple of hours, to a few weeks depending on where I'm stung by it. Hands, couple of hours, inner arm while cleaning the tank, weeks.

I know that Carpets are notorious for being fish eaters and having a potent "Sting"/powerful nematocysts. It is also documented that clownfish in Carpet anemones go melanistic and it has been hypothesized that the stronger nematocysts cause the clowns to get darker.

Could it be that it took my H.magnifica about 2 years to get back to full health and develop the more powerful nematocysts that will burn me and caused the clowns to go melanistic again?

I can see the health of the anemone affecting the production of the powerful nematocysts. Unhealthy = less powerful nematocysts, healthy = ability to manufacture powerful nematocysts that can cause clownfish to darken up/ go melanistic.

However, the flip side of that theory is that an unhealthy anemone that has not been able to manufacture the powerful nematocysts, is some how able to influence the clowns into going lighter in color than they would be with a healthy anemone.

This doesnt seem to make any sort of sense at all unless its the presence of the powerful nematocysts that cause the clowns to darken, and without them present, the clowns color fades. When the anemone gets healthy and begins to produce the more powerful nematocysts, the constant exposure to the anemone causes the clowns to darken up again?

Obviously, I'm not a scientist. This is merely wild conjecture and hypothesis without any realy support.

But I know there are some wicked smart people here, and I would love to hear from them or anyone else who has experianced anything like this with their clowns, Rods Onyx or otherwise.

BTW, I'm not bashing Rod's clowns in anyway, or trying to imply that his Onyx clowns wont stay Onyx, (Rod's Mahogany clowns anyone???? Just kidding Rod).....I'm trying to be as factual as I can recall with my incident and state everything that I recall or have records of that might be relevant.

Any feedback, (even bluntly pointing out how foolish this theory really is) is welcome. I realize that I dont have water parameters posted for the time frames the pics were taken, but early on, and during the "Brown" phase, I didnt keep the records that I do now.

What are your thoughts Lee?

Nick

 

[leebca]

I, as you, have no definitive help in this observation, however I do note the following, Nick:

1. You should not be putting bare hands/arms into your aquarium. Trading bacteria is not a good idea; human contamination is not a good idea; disease transmittal between fish and humans have been documented and real.

2. The human reaction to 'stings' varies. However, you may be developing an allergic type reaction to the sting. I mean, rather than the stingers developing, you are developing a reaction to the sting that has always been there, so now you are displaying more. But, it could be also as you suspect.

3. The diet is not heavy enough in greens. These fishes are omnivores and need less meat and more vegetables in their diet. Offer macro algae although now, they may be in too much of a food rut to nibble at the algae. Get more foods for omnivores and shy away from the meaty choices. This has more effect on pigmentation than most would believe. This post should be followed: How to Feed Macro Algae to Marine Fishes even if you only note a minor eating of it.

4. Anemonefishes will sometimes alter their shades and color intensities during different times, sometimes driven by temperament or life cycle (mating, nesting, egg laying, etc.).

That is about all I can contribute. Sorry it isn't more.

 

[Maxx]

Actually Lee, you're a big help and have pointed some things out that I had not considered until you and another person on another forum stated it...

To respond to your post in order:

1. You should not be putting bare hands/arms into your aquarium. Trading bacteria is not a good idea; human contamination is not a good idea; disease transmittal between fish and humans have been documented and real.

Its not trading bacteria per se.....more like a lend/lease scenario... Kidding, kidding...
You make solid points. I need to get a pair of those shoulder length gloves. The anemone reminds me of this every time I get brushed by it.
I understood that all cases of disease transmission between humans & fish was from the fish to the humans, and most of that was by eating the diseased fish. The remainder were cases of being either stung or poked/pierced by a fin/spine of the fish in question. I have not heard of any cases where fish have been infected by humans. Has this been documented?

2. The human reaction to 'stings' varies. However, you may be developing an allergic type reaction to the sting. I mean, rather than the stingers developing, you are developing a reaction to the sting that has always been there, so now you are displaying more. But, it could be also as you suspect.

This was brought up on the other board as well. I discount this theory, (although valid and technically true) since I have a second H.magnifica anemone, (this one hosting a pair of picasso percs), and I have no reaction to touching the tentacles of that one. I've only had it for a year, but had to nurse it back to health as it came in very weak and near death. I'm assuming here, but I suspect that the chemical composition of the nematocysts is the same for the two anemones. If that is in fact the case, I would expect to have the same reaction when touching either anemone. Instead its only present with the one. When I say no reactions, I mean no burning, no welting, nothing. The other anemone is healthy now and has an excellent feeding response and the tentacles are sticky. By rights, I should be getting burned by this one as well. But I'm not, (yet). Which tells me something is missing.

3. The diet is not heavy enough in greens. These fishes are omnivores and need less meat and more vegetables in their diet. Offer macro algae although now, they may be in too much of a food rut to nibble at the algae. Get more foods for omnivores and shy away from the meaty choices. This has more effect on pigmentation than most would believe. This post should be followed: How to Feed Macro Algae to Marine Fishes even if you only note a minor eating of it.

The fish also get greens when I feed greens to the tank via Nori on the clip or steamed broccoli on the clip. But I dont directly feed them that, its by catch and drifts past them in the anemone, so I honestly couldnt give a detailed response as to how much of that they get.

4. Anemonefishes will sometimes alter their shades and color intensities during different times, sometimes driven by temperament or life cycle (mating, nesting, egg laying, etc.).

Do you think its possible that the color shade and intensity can be affected by the nematocysts of their host anemone?

Nick

 

[leebca]

Regarding bacteria, it IS a very big thing and important. I write about it now and then, but I guess I never really put it into a sticky. There is a group of bacteria which can infect humans from fish and fish from humans. They are in the Mycobacterium group. They cause lesions -- a type of tumor infection. I know of a few people (me included) who have suffered through this. These bacteria are transmitted in both directions. In both human and fish, they are very difficult to eradicate. My own experience took several months to recover. Steven Pro had also been infected (hands) and his recovery took several months, too. Actually, we are glad to have 'recovered.' With fishes, they usually die. It is these set of bacteria you don't want to share.

If you try and take in a bigger picture of things, one of the dirtiest parts of the human body is the hand. Who knows what the hobbyist may have touched which, in the confines of an aquarium, could be a poison. Kitchen and cleanling sprays/chemicals not to mention the hundreds of things we touch daily. Think you can wash it off? Residual soap can make a living hell for our marine fishes, if not upset the biological filter.

Can't tell you how irritated I get when hobbyists boast about hand feeding their fish! Our world and their world only meet at the shores and with the huge dilution of the ocean.

Regarding the hue and coloring issues -- I know that Anemonefishes do and can suffer from the stings of invertebrates. Hobbyists are sorely mistaken that these fishes can and do get along with anemones 'all the time.' Melaninization is the process by which the stingers cause a mild 'burn' to the fish. Hypermelaninization is when this burn has gone too far. Humans have the same relationship with the sun. A tan would be considered melaninization. A sunburn would be the hyper form.

I have never seen this effect to be evenly distributed over the fish. The usual display are indistinct blotches or spots, black or dark. I wrote a sticky on this subject you may want to review. I call them 'smudges.' This is something not clear from the photos you provided. If you look closely, can you see lighter and darker areas? Darker areas you might generally call a smudge? If so, I'd then put it into the category of hypermelaninization and take the actions recommended in that post.

Are you adding both a vitamin and fat supplement to their foods? If not, I'd begin that practice. Hope this is all a bit more helpful.

 

[Maxx]

Thanks Lee!

Nick