Aquaticmike
Member
Besides H2o changes.. how else can you lower alk in a reef???
How to lower Alk
- Thread starter Aquaticmike
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DonW
R.I.P.
Boomer
Well-known member
What Don just said. There are methods, which I consider dangerous and do not like bringing them up.
Jan
Well-known member
Boomer, do you consider adding calcium chloride dangerous? I posted a similar question a few days ago and at least one person said I should add calcium chloride to help bring the alkalinity down...
DonW
R.I.P.
Jan
Well-known member
I was told that there would be a "use up" process that would happen which would contribute to the lowering of my alkalinity.
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Why would one want to lower KH? too much precipitation? Holding Calcium down?
DonW
R.I.P.
Jan
Well-known member
yes, and I needed that to happen because my elevated alk dropped my calcium levels.
DonW
R.I.P.
There is way to much misinformation going around RF lately on reef chemistry and using buffers and additives. Using one chemical to counter act another just causes more and more imbalances. Wacked out chemistry causes a very unstable reef. Sticking with the basics and dosing only the basics to do what they are intended to do is how you get stability.
Don
Jan
Well-known member
so are you saying that elevated alkalinity levels do not cause calcium levels to drop? Or that adding calcium in an elevated alk/lowered calcium situation will cause an even greater imabalance? My information is that raising the calcium in such a situation will help resolve the imbalance. 
edited to add: in addition to stopping the buffering that caused the too-high alk, that is....
edited to add: in addition to stopping the buffering that caused the too-high alk, that is....
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Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Don, Curt, and especially Boomer are the pros here. But fom an old school type, clean fresh salt mix with maybe a little calcium added can not be beat. If you have a lot of clams, SPS growing, and coraline spreading consuming calcium rapidly and perhaps lowering the ALK, dosing with Kalk or adding a Calcium reacter is best. I have dosed off and on through the years, and without frequent testing and having a quality dosing pump, it is an uphill battle. Keep it simple seems to be most successfull.
Currently, I have a small calcium reacter running and dose some kalk with my ATO just because I have it, and because my cheapo reacter is a single chamber and I figure it is good to offset the acidic effluent going into the tank.
Hope my simplicity is not too far off the mark, but my stuff is doing pretty well.
Mike
Currently, I have a small calcium reacter running and dose some kalk with my ATO just because I have it, and because my cheapo reacter is a single chamber and I figure it is good to offset the acidic effluent going into the tank.
Hope my simplicity is not too far off the mark, but my stuff is doing pretty well.
Mike
DonW
R.I.P.
so are you saying that elevated alkalinity levels do not cause calcium levels to drop? Or that adding calcium in an elevated alk/lowered calcium situation will cause an even greater imabalance? My information is that raising the calcium in such a situation will help resolve the imbalance.
edited to add: in addition to stopping the buffering that caused the too-high alk, that is....
What I'm saying, is use chemicals to get it into balance. Dont use them in order to counter act a mistake. Starting with a balanced system and dosing only what is needed keep it that way is all that needs to be done to have a stable reef system. Pick a set of numbers and stick with them.
If your alk is high and your ca is acceptable then raising ca to match the alk really is going just cause more confusion. Keep the ca stable at the acceptable range and let the alk fall, when it hits your target keep it there. Alk falls very fast in a reef so jumping in and trying to help it along is just making the tank more unstable.
Don
Boomer
Well-known member
Don
Yes and I may have missed some of it elsewhere here and am glad and/or hope you caught it. Your statement on imbalances is 100 % correct and is often why people can not get things balanced or in line often, adding to much crap, to correct x, y or z. We want to stay simple.
Jan
I posted a similar question a few days ago and at least one person said I should add calcium chloride to help bring the alkalinity down...
That can be done but only under the right conditions and often does not do anything but raise the Ca++. There are to many controlling factors, pH, Alk, temp Ca++ , Mg++. It is a much, much more common practice to lower high Ca++ by raising the Alk. I really do not like either of these methods, as all they do is precip CaCO3, sometimes as a fine powder, which later may go back into solution and really mess things up.
Yes and I may have missed some of it elsewhere here and am glad and/or hope you caught it. Your statement on imbalances is 100 % correct and is often why people can not get things balanced or in line often, adding to much crap, to correct x, y or z. We want to stay simple.
Jan
I posted a similar question a few days ago and at least one person said I should add calcium chloride to help bring the alkalinity down...
That can be done but only under the right conditions and often does not do anything but raise the Ca++. There are to many controlling factors, pH, Alk, temp Ca++ , Mg++. It is a much, much more common practice to lower high Ca++ by raising the Alk. I really do not like either of these methods, as all they do is precip CaCO3, sometimes as a fine powder, which later may go back into solution and really mess things up.
Boomer
Well-known member
Jan, if you want to lower the Alk SAFELY, leave it alone or do WC. As Don just stated the Alk will fall faster than you think. By the way what is your Alk and why have you not posted it or are you just asking a question of interest.?
Jan
Well-known member
Boomer,
I started a thread about it just yesterday or the day before about my Alk test results. THe salifert test did not change color after adding 1.0 ml reagent and the API test took 16 drops to change to yellow. People said that my alk was probably ~16. I also said in that thread that my calcium was 330 and I asked if I could attribute that lowered level to the elevated Alk. The answer was yes, and the advice was to stop adding Reef Builder calcium carbonate to my top-off water like I had been doing, and to add calcium chloride to the tank to help resolve the imbalance. I asked whether adding calc chloride would cause a precipitation event and was told by someone that no, it would not. I did add a capful of Kent calc chloride and will retest parameters tonight after 1.5 days of not buffering top-off water and having added this calcium last night. (I posted this same question on two forums and summarized what I heard in both places.)
for what it's worth, my ph has been ranging between 8.29 and 8.4 over a 24 hr period, which gave me the erroneous idea that my alkalinity must have been okay. Now I know better.
Temp stays at 77F after adding the chiller.
I use a calc reactor, dual chamber, dripping at a med-slow rate; just added 1 month ago.
I started a thread about it just yesterday or the day before about my Alk test results. THe salifert test did not change color after adding 1.0 ml reagent and the API test took 16 drops to change to yellow. People said that my alk was probably ~16. I also said in that thread that my calcium was 330 and I asked if I could attribute that lowered level to the elevated Alk. The answer was yes, and the advice was to stop adding Reef Builder calcium carbonate to my top-off water like I had been doing, and to add calcium chloride to the tank to help resolve the imbalance. I asked whether adding calc chloride would cause a precipitation event and was told by someone that no, it would not. I did add a capful of Kent calc chloride and will retest parameters tonight after 1.5 days of not buffering top-off water and having added this calcium last night. (I posted this same question on two forums and summarized what I heard in both places.)
for what it's worth, my ph has been ranging between 8.29 and 8.4 over a 24 hr period, which gave me the erroneous idea that my alkalinity must have been okay. Now I know better.
Temp stays at 77F after adding the chiller.
I use a calc reactor, dual chamber, dripping at a med-slow rate; just added 1 month ago.
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Boomer
Well-known member
OK and I missed it Sorry and you mean this
The only way to adjust this is to add a calcium chloride additive, like Kent Turbo Calcium or the Calcium portion of a 2-part additive (be sure to not add the Alk additive). While your Alk is still high, it will consume some of what you add
No good advice and as I stated it only works under the right conditions. It is easy enough to prove to yourself and I just had a guy last week with the same question and issues you have on another forum. I told him to take a gal of tank water and add calcium chloride. On his test the Ca++ when up to almost 800 ppm with only a slight drop in Alk. If you ran a test you may get better results due the the higher pH, but a lower temp which is a inhibitor. What is going to happen is dependent on the tanks Omega Value, a function of Ca++, pH Alk and temp mostly, which dictates if Ca++ will leave solution as CaCO3 or if CaCO3 goes into solution.
You can get an idea of what I mean here by looking at this article and scrolling down to
Calcium and Alkalinity Balance Issues
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.htm
The only way to adjust this is to add a calcium chloride additive, like Kent Turbo Calcium or the Calcium portion of a 2-part additive (be sure to not add the Alk additive). While your Alk is still high, it will consume some of what you add
No good advice and as I stated it only works under the right conditions. It is easy enough to prove to yourself and I just had a guy last week with the same question and issues you have on another forum. I told him to take a gal of tank water and add calcium chloride. On his test the Ca++ when up to almost 800 ppm with only a slight drop in Alk. If you ran a test you may get better results due the the higher pH, but a lower temp which is a inhibitor. What is going to happen is dependent on the tanks Omega Value, a function of Ca++, pH Alk and temp mostly, which dictates if Ca++ will leave solution as CaCO3 or if CaCO3 goes into solution.
You can get an idea of what I mean here by looking at this article and scrolling down to
W = 1 (risky: dissolution of aragonite begins here)
W = 6 (non-biological precipitation is more likely)
Calcium and Alkalinity Balance Issues
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.htm
Jan
Well-known member
I read this...
If I understand correctly it sounds like the presence of phosphate, organics, and magnesium may inhibit a precipitation event in some tanks with supersaturated water (calcium carbonate) because these will bind up the crystal formation.
Question...is there a certain period of time when the precipitation event is going to occur and if that time period passes it means it will not occur? Nothing seemed to have happened within the hour after adding the 1 capful of calcium chloride, and the tank looked normal this morning as well. Does that mean I have passed the danger zone when a big precipitation event would have occurred? Or could I still come home to a snow storm this evening?
If I understand correctly it sounds like the presence of phosphate, organics, and magnesium may inhibit a precipitation event in some tanks with supersaturated water (calcium carbonate) because these will bind up the crystal formation.
Question...is there a certain period of time when the precipitation event is going to occur and if that time period passes it means it will not occur? Nothing seemed to have happened within the hour after adding the 1 capful of calcium chloride, and the tank looked normal this morning as well. Does that mean I have passed the danger zone when a big precipitation event would have occurred? Or could I still come home to a snow storm this evening?
Boomer
Well-known member
If I understand correctly it sounds like the presence of phosphate, organics, and magnesium may inhibit a precipitation event in some tanks with supersaturated water (calcium carbonate) because these will bind up the crystal formation.
Yes, as I said there are may variables to include is the CaCO3 as Calcite or Aragonite.
Question...is there a certain period of time when the precipitation event is going to occur and if that time period passes it means it will not occur? Nothing seemed to have happened within the hour after adding the 1 capful of calcium chloride, and the tank looked normal this morning as well. Does that mean I have passed the danger zone when a big precipitation event would have occurred? Or could I still come home to a snow storm this evening?
That is all guess work and yes you may come home to a snow storm. You are just better off to leave it alone and let it come down on its own or you will end up with a worse mess or just do a WC.
Yes, as I said there are may variables to include is the CaCO3 as Calcite or Aragonite.
Question...is there a certain period of time when the precipitation event is going to occur and if that time period passes it means it will not occur? Nothing seemed to have happened within the hour after adding the 1 capful of calcium chloride, and the tank looked normal this morning as well. Does that mean I have passed the danger zone when a big precipitation event would have occurred? Or could I still come home to a snow storm this evening?
That is all guess work and yes you may come home to a snow storm. You are just better off to leave it alone and let it come down on its own or you will end up with a worse mess or just do a WC.
Jan
Well-known member
okay...will do. thanks for the info.
