hyposalinity treatment in main tank

[NC2WA]

I have what appears to the initial stage of Ich in my main tank (375g). Out of 17 fish only 3 fish are showing symptoms. The kole tang and emperor angel are showing spots on the body. The empeor and regal angels fins are cloudy. I already loss my blueface angel that I have for 1.5 yrs. But I believe this was due to paristic worms. I noticed it was having difficulty with a bowel movement. On inspection, the feces looked twisted and had some transparency to it, but did have some white spots on the edges of outside of the entire body.

I have removed all corals, inverts, chaeto from fuge. All that is in the tank is fish and live rock. To make sure that I do not lose any more fish, I have decided to use hyposalinity treatment in the main display tank. Right move? or is there another method you can suggest?

FWIW, I started to move the salinity down today from 1.023 to 1.020, I plan on moving down tomorrow, unless you think hypo in main tank is a bad idea.

I do run a Aquaviolet 80w UV sterilizer 24 x7.

First, I know your Hyposalinity sticky says to do this in a QT tank, but I assume this can be performed in the main tank?

Second, should the UV sterilizer still run or be turned off?

Third, if for some chance I have a internal/external bacteria infection for any fish, can Maracyn II be applied to the main tank while hyposalinity treatment is being peformed?

Are there any other gotchas I should be aware since I plan on doing this to a main tank?

Thanks
Kirk

 

[rayjay]

The only problem is see is that removing the pathogens by hypo is negated by replacing the corals and other contents afterwards.
It IS possible but not guaranteed, that the treatment can give the fish time to rebuild their own systems to handle the re introduction of the pathogens afterwards.

 

[baseballkid5]

Bringing the Salinity Down you can go a little quicker than .3 a day. Its Bringing it up you want to take your time.. I did this in my 75 gallon for 8 weeks per Herefishy about 3-4 years ago. I would think the Sterilizer should be fine it will kill all bacteria but bringing the salinity down should do that as well.

 

[rayjay]

A UV steriliser, if appropriately sized and with proper flow, is still not going to kill all bacteria/pathogens, but only those going through the sterilizer itself.
There are still a lot of pathogens adhering to surfaces within the system that NEVER go through and remain in the tank.
Even pathogens that can remain in the water column but resist getting sucked up by the flow to the UV will remain.
As for treating with Maracyn II, that only works if you kNOW that the bacteria afflicting the fish are gram negative.
For me, I have no way of knowing for sure what kind I'm treating so I treat with both Maracyn and Maracyn II, just to be on the safe side.
While most bacteria affecting our fish are gram negative, I don't want to find out too late that it is gram positive, possibly losing a fish(s) because I didn't treat appropriately.
As for lowering the s.g., I've lowered mine to 1.0075 in two days with no problem. If going that low though, be absolutely sure that your device for measuring the s.g. is dead accurate at that range. To be safe, don't go below 1.009.
I've had strains survive 6 and 8 weeks at 1.0075 and ended up coppering that fish

 

[leebca]

The assumption that the hypo treatment can be performed in the DT is true, IF and ASSUMING the DT is bare bottom and all live rock and invertebrates are removed. If this isn't the case, then you are in new/unfamiliar ground with the following possible outcomes:

12 weeks of treatment and yet I have seen the parasite come back;
The death and resulting decay of invertebrates not removed shoots ammonia and/or nitrites high and harms the fish; and
If pH is not very carefully controlled, chemicals not dissolved in the normal pH range of sea water may dissolve and pose other harmful effects on the fish.

Will you be able to perform a 90% water change of your DT if you discover ammonia and/or nitrites? This is just one reason why the QT system is much better. There are always alternatives with regards to taking the fish out. They can go into QTs, other people's QTs, find other homes/places for them to be treated, buy used aquariums you'll sell or give away as presents later, etc.

Although I have seen this done with mixed effects/results, I cannot give advice to whatever obstacles you may encounter, since I don't advise treatments which harms fish.

As Rayjay mentions, the UV is of no benefit with regards to the parasite, BUT it may help keep the inevitable bacterial bloom at bay, if there will invertebrates and/or live rock left in the tank.

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

Thanks. I can remove the live rock, however I do have sand in the tank. This would leave fish and sand in the tank. So are you saying hypo is not effective with sand?

If I *were* to use copper as a treatment instead of hyposalinity in the main DT, I assume NO corals or inverts could be added to the tank. Essentially, the tank would be a FO system as this point ??

Currently, my salinity is 1.020 so I still have the option or going hypo or copper.

Doing a 90% water change on a 375 g tank would be a large task esp if snow hits the area again.

I am just trying to understand all my options before I "pull the dreaded trigger" as it were.

Kirk

 

[leebca]

What I'm saying is that with the live rock, your substrate is teaming with invertebrate life -- worms, pods, etc., etc. This is what will die during a hypo treatment. The live sand will become dead sand and release toxins into the water. In addition, it somehow 'protects' the parasite in ways I don't understand, other than to say that the usual weeks timing given for a QT treatment no longer apply and I don't know how long is long enough. :?:

A copper treatment kills even more of the inverts than a hypo will AND when the LR is added back, it will proceed to kill it, even in concentrations that a test kit can't measure.

To get the copper out, the 90% or more water change would still be needed AND during the treatment, the biological filter may stop and you'd end up doing this daily to control ammonia and nitrites.

It depends on your priorities Kirk. . .Fish or easy. :evil:

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

Thanks. (I've decided for fish since I have a huge investment in them).

I've decided to QT the affected fish (emperor and kole tang) and treat with copper. I am leaving the main tank alone and for now corals in a separate tank, just in case.

Kirk

 

[leebca]

I think you've made a very good decision, Kirk. You and I go back some time in posts and I had thought you were one of the better hobbyists. The decision supports my thoughts.

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

thanks.

I normally am very good at diagnosing a problem, but this had stump as not only one fish is showing signs, and unfortunately, I have so many QT tanks. But for now, I am treating the two fish that need it the most. For now, all other fish are eating in the DT and will supplement food with vitamins, HUFA, and amino acids.

Kirk

 

[mojoreef]

Just to tag along, We used to use and have some succes with a variety of both gram - and gram + bacteria, along with protozoans by saturating their food with garlic, or mainly the Allicin with in garlic, has this fallen out of favor these days??

Mojo

 

[leebca]

The use of garlic to fight parasites was a rumor that generated a multi-million Dollar industry.

The garlic components have a short shelf life -- hours. The components that do the 'job' improve the fish's innate immune system (as opposed to the 'learned' immune system). The innate immune system doesn't help the fish fend off Marine Ich and other parasites in the 'obligate' group.

With or without the use of garlic, a fish can develop an immunity (the learned immunity) to some of these parasites, but that immunity is nowhere near like that immunity a human has. Their immunity is 'weak' and lasts only a few months at tops. It's enough to fool a hobbyist that they are not infected -- but they are.