Keeping Anemones?

[Laurel]

So we just set up a 29 gallon biocube with 23 lbs of cured live rock, and it went through a min-cycle, the ammonia originally measured at .50, but the following day(this morning) it was down to .25, and we have no nitrites. I threw out the saltwater card on my nitrate test kit months ago, assuming that I'd never keep marine, so I still need to grab another of those. We got 3 types of hermit crabs, and 3 small snails to play clean-up crew, and they all seem to be fine.

We ultimately want to keep 2 clowns, a few anemones, some shrimp, and maybe another small fish, perhaps a fairy basslet.

The LFS told us that so long as our water parameters have been stable, and all look good, we could get an anemone as soon as friday. I've gotten some conflicting information, some sites say that tanks need to run for months before adding anemones, and 2 people at the lfs suggested that adding an anemone early would be fine. The "cube" comes with a 36 watt 10,000k bulb and a 36 watt actinic, will that be enough for any type of anemone? I just want to be sure that we don't buy livestock for a tank that isn't ready for it, and have it all die.

Also, the LFS suggested that we get the anemone first, and let it live in the tank with the inverts for a few months before getting clownfish for it, as they have a tendency to "harass" the anemone, putting it under unneeded stress. Is this a sound theory?

Thanks for all the help, you guys really seem to know what you're talking about.

 

[mmkeeper]

I would wait on the anemone for several months to let the system mature. Anemones are very sensitive to nitrates. They need a stable tank. Don't add any fish till you have 0 ammonia,0 nitrite and close to 0 nitrate. Read the stickies above to get some good help on starting tank.

If you still have some ammonia and you have 0 nitrite you are in the first stage of cycling your system. You start with ammonia, then the ammonia becomes nitrite as the bacteria matures, then to nitrate.

 

[Krish]

Welcome to RF!! First off, IMO it is real early to add in anemone, much less any marine life The fact that you are reading ammonia (.25) means that your tank has not completed the initial cycle yet. In order for the initial cycle to be completed, the ammonia in your tank will need to drop off to zero (which is done so by an aerobic bacteria that will convert the ammonia into nitrite) and then the nitrite will then need to drop off to zero (which is also done by an aerobic bacteria which will convert it to nitrates). Until then, nothing really should be added into the tank because both ammonia and nitrites are very toxic. How long will it take for the process to occur is hard to say as it varies with every tank so you'll have to just test weekly. With that being said, it is usally recommended that most anemones only be added in a mature tank, but I guess that could be debateable

 

[Laurel]

I understand the nitrogen cycle, and I without a doubt will not add anything to a tank with any ammonia or nitrite readings. The ammonia has gone down though, and with no nitrite readings, I can only assume that the bacteria responsible for the nitrite->nitrate change are working well.

In my 75 gallon freshwater setup, I don't let the nitrates get over 15-20 ppm, is that too high for a saltwater tank? Since the live rock was cured, it should have beneficial bacteria already, and should be "doing" the nitrogen cycle hoopla already, no? I'll check the ammonia/nitrites when I get home tonight.

We won't be adding anything to the tank for a few weeks at the very least, as our LFS is having a crazy sale on friday, and it seems to take a few weeks to get any selection of livestock back in.

I also recently read that a soft coral, like leather coral would work as a host for the clownfish, and is more likely to "stand up" to their affection. My only concern is that I've read that it gets rather big, and our tank is basically a 2' cube. Is there anything that stays smaller?

Thanks for all of the help, I appreciate it greatly.

 

[mmkeeper]

I bet you will see nitrites soon. You should look at about 4-6 weeks to cycle.

 

[returnofsid]

Your tank is too small to keep "a few" anemones. In fact, your tank is really too small to keep any anemones. However, bubble tip anemones may do alright in a tank that size. I only say this because I had a RBTA in a 29 for several months before upgrading to a larger tank. Also, I don't know that you have adequate lighting for any anemone. I'd suggest upgrading your lighting. I'd also agree with those above in WAITING. Keep in mind that most LFS will give you the advice they think you want to hear. Afterall, they're in it for the money. I'm lucky in that there's several LFS in this area that love the hobby and aren't just in it for the money so give sound advice. In fact, there's one LFS here that would suggest you never add an anemone until your tank is at least a year old. I don't know that I'd go to that extreme...but you want to definately wait until your tank is very stable. This usually takes at least 6 months. Use that time to read all you can find and educate yourself. This is a wonderful forum with wonderful members and a lot of knowledge!! Another great site is www.wetwebmedia.com .

Most anemones get way to large for a 29. In fact, my original RBTA that was in my 29 split about a year ago. I gave away one and kept the other. The one I kept is now in a 46 bowfront and is at least 14" in diameter. It's too large for the 46...lol. Eventually, I'd like to move it to my 75.

 

[Laurel]

Alright, I just got home and tested the tank. Ammonia is at zero, and nitrites are at zero. I was under the impression that with fully cured live rock, I would experience either a VERY tiny cycle or no cycle at all. If the ammonia and nitrites are both at zero, and the nitrates are as of yet unknown, would it not be assumed that my biological filtration has cycled? In my experience with freshwater, ammonia/nitrites don't just "go away" and then magically reappear. I'm not going to rush out and buy an anemone or anything just because my test results seem good, I'm just trying to understand where these things are going. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what I seem to be understanding from you is in direct opposition to my freshwater experience, as well as my test results.

 

[Krish]

Alright, I just got home and tested the tank. Ammonia is at zero, and nitrites are at zero. I was under the impression that with fully cured live rock, I would experience either a VERY tiny cycle or no cycle at all. If the ammonia and nitrites are both at zero, and the nitrates are as of yet unknown, would it not be assumed that my biological filtration has cycled? In my experience with freshwater, ammonia/nitrites don't just "go away" and then magically reappear. I'm not going to rush out and buy an anemone or anything just because my test results seem good, I'm just trying to understand where these things are going. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what I seem to be understanding from you is in direct opposition to my freshwater experience, as well as my test results.

If both your ammonia and nitrites are at zero and remain stable that way, then yes, your tank has completed the initial cycle which is quite possible if you did infact have fully cured live rock. You hardly ever see them pop back up unless something goes hay-wire, but personally, I've never experienced it. As for 15-20ppm of nitrates in a saltwater tank, that is fine for fish-only setups, but in a reef setup where most corals are concerned, you are advised to keep them at zero.

 

[dnjan]

If the ammonia and nitrites are both at zero, and the nitrates are as of yet unknown, would it not be assumed that my biological filtration has cycled?

Assuming (without actually testing) is risky, especially with a young tank. It is best to actually test.

Also, it is best to indicate what brand test kit (and what level of sensitivity, if applicable) was used. Different brand of test kits have (widely) different levels of reliability.

Please understand - the people posting here are not trying to be negative - they (we) are just trying to protect the life of a relatively delicate animal.

 

[mmkeeper]

I cost my self hundreds of dollars and killed lots of livestock until I found this place and listen to the knowledgable people here. Please go slow and you will be much happier and have a beautiful healthy part of the ocean in your home. I too was a long time freshwater person who was used to the quick cycle of freshwater. Most saltwater livestock are a lot more sensitive to nitrite, nitrates and ammonia.

 

[Laurel]

I understand that you're just looking out for what's best for the tank. There are loads of people on the freshwater forum that I visit that want to dump 20 fish into a tank that's been running 3 days, so I know where you're coming from. FWIW, I never said that I was going to run out and buy one this week, I was merely asking for some good information, as I don't have the experience to reconcile the difference between what some websites that I've found and the LFS's advice. I know enough not to blindly trust whatever the "fish guru" at the fish store says, as they've given questionable advice in the past.

I'm using an API test kit. I just ran out and got a new nitrate kit so I'd have the saltwater card. As the tank sits now, my numbers are:
0.0ppm Ammonia
0.0ppm Nitrite
5ppm Nitrate

If I'm reading this correctly, my cycle has completed. Again, I'm not going to run out and buy anything right away. We may not even end up getting an anemone based on the information we've received about our lighting being on the low end of adequate. Perhaps when our water salinity and whatnot is certainly stable, we'll get a small fish, and then at some point a soft coral, if that's acceptable.

Thanks for your input!

 

[mmkeeper]

Those number look good. Do you have a cleaning crew yet? Snails, hermit crabs,ect.
Sprinkle some fish food in your tank and see how your number look in a day or so.

 

[Laurel]

Yes, I do have a cleaning crew. We have 3 hermit crabs, one with red legs, one with red antennae, and one with brown legs and antennae, as well as 3 different kinds of snails, but I think one of the crabs killed one of the snails.

I don't have any marine food yet, as we're not sure what fish we'll be getting. Will a few pellets of cichlid food hurt anything?

 

[mmkeeper]

Chiclid food is ok you are feeding the bacteria, it does care the name of the food only the protien,carbs and fat.

 

[returnofsid]

I'd also agree that your cycle is pretty much complete. I've had similar experiences when using fully cured live rock. Now I would say you are safe to introduce fish. Keep in mind that the "fish inch/gallon" rule that we who've have freshwater are familiar with can be thrown out the window with salt water...lol. I'd start out with 1 or 2 small fish for the first month or so. In a tank that size, you'll be limited to 3 or 4 fish (depending on size and temperament) as your final bio-load. Keep a close eye on your ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels after adding fish.

Again, research your lighting and the lighting needs of the corals/inverts you're wanting to keep. You'll be fine keeping soft corals, however, I just don't think you've enough lighting for any anemone.

Sounds like things are going well!! Keep us posted and good luck!!

 

[Laurel]

Alright - mini update: Everything's exactly how it was last night. Ammonia and nitrites both at zero, nitrate at 5.

The one inch of fish per gallon rule doesn't even work in freshwater. I have 16 cichlids in a 75 gallon tank, and in order to keep aggression to a minimum, once the fish become sexually mature, tanks either need to be severely understocked(1-2 fish in a 4 ft tank) or very overstocked, like 20-25 fish in a 75 gallon tank. I think it really depends on what type of fish one intends to keep.

In my original post, I suggested that we'd likely get 2 clownfish and a basslet. If a soft coral will work in the tank, what should be the waiting period on that? Will we be "good to go" in a few weeks? Should I add a small fish first, then the coral, or add the coral and allow it to get situated and established before adding any fish?

You suggested to research the lighting needs of the corals/invertebrates that I want to keep. I find sites that suggest "medium" lighting, but I have no guide to suggest what my lighting is. Is there a good site that gives a more comprehensive overview of the needs of things such as corals? Thanks

 

[returnofsid]

Well, there's a watt/gallon rule that's kinda good to go by, however, I forget what it is...lol. I would say your lighting is on the low to low/medium level. A lot depends on depth of life from bulbs as well. There's a lot of great stickies on this site that can help you out in your research. I would say that you should add fish first. My reasoning is that adding fish will probably cause a mini spike in levels. The fish will have a better chance of surviving that spike than your corals will. Once that spike drops back down, you should be good to add corals. I think you'd be safe adding soft corals as soon as you see that spike drop back down.

Another thing you could consider is adding a HOB power filter that you can easily mod into a mini-refugium. Basically, you'd replace the filter media with Chaeto grass. This would help in reducing nutrients. I don't remember you mentioning an skimmer. If you plan on having anything other than fish in your tank, I'd highly recommend a protein skimmer. A Remora HOB skimmer would be great for that tank.

I know exactly what you're saying about the fish/gallon rule with freshwater. I was just using that as an example. If you've had good success keeping cichlids, you should be just fine. I raised and bred cichlids for years before deciding to go saltwater. In fact, I've not been able to complete get away from freshwater and still have a planted tank set up...lol.

2 Clowns and a basselet should be just fine...as long as you aren't keeping Maroon clowns or other of the larger and very aggressive Clowns. Percs or Occellaris should be just fine.

 

[caribewolf]

Well, I have a 55 gallon coral reef tank. After four months everything was stable, o nitrites and nitrates, o ammonia, ph 8.3-8.4. I had a few corals in it with some fish. It had already cycled and was doing quite well. I decided to add 10 pounds of sand to increase sand depth and also added a few more corals as well as one fish, a few shrimp and some snails. My nitrites have gone up to about 5 ppm. My nitrates are at about 20 ppm. I have lost one brain sun coral and I dont know what is happening with the torch coral. Everything else appeared to be stable however. I placed additional filter media to pull the nitrates out and have been adding something called AZ NO3 to reduce nitrates. This is the second day and it appears that nothing else has died, at least the snails have not. Is there anything else that I should do? There are also some mangroves in there but I dont think they are doing anything right now but the protein skimmer is doing well.
Caribewolf

 

[mmkeeper]

You need to be doing water changes to lower the no2 and no3. The no2 is the most toxic to your tank. Check your new water for nitrites and nitrates before adding.

 

[dnjan]

Remember - the population of bacteria in your tank that take care of the ammonia to nitrogen gas processing is balanced by the amount of waste being produced by your tank inhabitants. Significantly increase the quantity of waste producers (fish, snails, etc) and/or block access to the bacteria you have by covering a lot of your sandbed with new sand, and it will take a while for your bacteria population to catch up.

When I add sand, I add it to only a small portion of the tank at a time (typically 1/4, max). And I let the new sand have enough time to become biologically active before adding new animals to the tank.