Malnutrition Cues

[csababubbles]

Lee,

As I understand it, there are a few fish that slowly starve to death due to malnutrition even though it seems they are eating heartily. Like we are not supplying them with certain nutrients they get in the wild. I guess the regal angel, corallivore butterflys, moorish idol, etc. would be examples of those fish.

I have read of many stories where the aquarist will have a seemingly healthy and eating regal angel or Idol and then one day it just stops eating and dies soon after. I would have thought malnutrition would show more outward signs but is it possible to not have visual clues? If the fish is eating plenty then it would be fat but still not getting the nutrients it needs so it would be hard to tell right? Are there any clues I can look for to see if the fish is getting the nutrients it needs? How long does it typically take to start seeing the effects of malnutrition?

 

[leebca]

There are sometimes dozens of factors that contribute to the timing and the signs and the death rate. Just to name a few:
1. In the wild, how was the fish eating -- did the deficiency begin there?
2. In the handling and transferring of the fish, what was done regarding foods and feeding? Was that proper?
3. The age of the fish.
4. Other behind the scenes afflictions (like an intestinal parasite that isn't enough to kill the host, but present and taking some of the nutrients away from the fish.
5. Did the fish specialize its diet in the wild?
6. Just what nutrient was missing or lacking?
7. Was it more than just one nutrient?
8. Was there some nutrient coming to the fish, but just insufficient?
9. Are other stressors at work? How many? How bad?

Thus, depending upon circumstances ranging from things like on the above list, the fish can die in a few weeks or a few years.

A fish can and does gain weight when a lot of fats and carbs are provided in their diets. A fat, eating fish doesn't mean it is healthy and getting the right nutrients. Many hobbyists are lulled into thinking that the fish is eating and likes the foods offered, so all is well. This is my greatest hurdle to overcome when trying to communicate to hobbyists, that all those 'signs' are meaningless. I try to point out that a human child would happily eat cake, ice cream, candy, donuts, and hot dogs to the exclusion of all else, but would the child be healthy?

More than a third of the time the fish picks up a condition from a causative agent that waits for the fish to weaken. Signs of MHLLE and Lymphocystis are common examples of these, but there is also other signs: injuries that don't heal quickly, torn fins, symptoms similar to fin rot, lethargy, infections that come and go (or won't go), etc.

I have performed postmortems on fishes fed with the wrong nutrients, the wrong foods, or insufficient nutrients. Internally there are usually signs of such a diet. They include fat deposits in the wrong places, and conditions of the liver and other internal organs. Probably one of the biggest giveaways is failure of the fish's reproductive organs to properly develop. When the body is starved for nutrition, the reproductive organs don't develop. This makes sense to me since why get the fish ready for procreation when the resources aren't there for the offspring.

In the case of internal giveaways, there are quite often no outward signs to give a clue to this. The most obvious is an early/untimely death, one mode of which you have pointed out.

The most significant indication of reduced, missing, or lack of proper nutrition is that the fish that should be growing, doesn't grow. Marine fish continue to grow. Those that don't continue to grow have stress issues, the most likely of which is diet.

Photo and measure your fishes. Keep a log. Refer to it two/three times a year and decide if the fish is growing or not. Keep track of coloration, changes in intensity and hue. Compare photos of 'before' and 'after.' We get so used to seeing our fishes we sometimes fail to see a slow transition in appearances.

The best approach on this matter is prevention rather than watching for signs or waiting to see. In general, if the hobbyist will attentively research the kind of fish it is and what foods it should be eating, then follow a varied diet of proper frozen and live foods, with vitamin and fat supplements, most nutrition issues don't crop up to begin with.

 

[csababubbles]

Very informative post. Thanks so much for sharing.

 

[gary shandling]

Its hard to match there natural food source. So supplying a well mixed diet is best with feeding them more often smaller amounts. Feed flake in the morning and differant type of frozen 1 or 2 times more throught the day. They would also like nori 2 or 3 times a weeks.

Then good oxygen levels mean they would be more active and more hungry so proper water current important in overall health.

 

[krisfal]

Gary,
If you read the ingredients on that flake food you are feeding you are likely to find it contains a good portion of wheat and or wheat gluten which has no nutritional value for marine fish. Since the fish cannot use it for nutrition it just ends up being fish poop.

It is not all that hard to come close to natural food sources if you pay attention to the ingredients on what you feed, if you choose frozen foods that contain whole marine based ingredients.

I would recommend reading Lee's write up on fish nutrition. He spoke to the local reef club here in WA last year about fish nutrition and what I learned made me change my feeding regiment and my fish are healthier as a result. The amount of nori to feed will really depend on the type of fish you have, since I have a lot of tangs and a angel I feed nori 3 times a day.

I agree with you on feeding a mixed diet and feeding several times a day, I cringe when I read about people only feeding every other day to control nitrates, there are much better ways to control your water quality than starving your fish!

 

[leebca]

csababubbles,

Didn't have enough time to finish my post. So that is Part 1.

Part 2 is behavior indicators. Kris learned some about these. Only people like Kris and yourself who spend time with marine fish and bother to get to know them (personally) can usually detect behavior changes related to malnutrition.

I wrote a post in another Forums regarding fish that eat like a pig. I usually get so many defensive posts against the post that I didn't put it here. Anyway, the gist of the post is that a fish that voraciously attacks its food at feeding time is indicating it is either not getting enough to eat or is not getting the right diet. Why would a fish act like it's starving? Because it is!

A fish that is short on nutrients often turns belligerent to other fishes in the community tank. Faced with only the nutrients put into the tank and they are coming up short, Nature kicks in and 'reasons' that the way forward is to eliminate the competition. The resources (foods/nutrition) are fixed, and they are inadequate alters a fish's behavior. How does the fish act during feedings? Does it prevent or try to prevent other fish from getting food? This behavior is a fairly good sign the fish is either not getting enough to eat, or not getting the right nutrients, or both.

Related to the above -- a 'friendly' good community fish turns bad. Now some fishes just grow up mean, but other seems to turn mean. Like above, Nature calls for the elimination of the competition when resources are low. There can be a change in the way the malnourished fish treats the other fishes in between feedings.

I just wanted to point a whole other group of signals to malnutrition besides the physical. Fish that begin with low nutrition or insufficient quantity have a set behavior that the typical hobbyist just chalks up to the fish's personality. However, without something to compare the fish's behavior to, the hobbyist never comes to the realization that the diet, frequency, and/or quantity of food is the problem(s).

This is a good topic for discussion and one which rarely gets any attention.

 

[csababubbles]

I would like to ask about my potters angel and if you guys think he is not getting the nutrients he needs. From what I have read they eat detritus and algae. I have lots of algae in the tank for him to nibble on ranging from micro to macro. I also feed lots of spirulina, ulva, calurpa, collared greens, carrot, kale, peas, nori, etc. He also eats like a pig all the other foods I put in the tank for the angels and other fish that includes lots of whole meaty marine animals chopped up like clams, squid, octopus, fish, shrimp, scallops, etc.

But, his color has faded tremendously. Now when I first got him he was not the most colorful potter but he has very clearly become much more pale. Is this a nutritional deficiency? I also noticed the personifer angel I have in the same system has lost his black body color and is now a paler, almost white body. But for him I think I have an explanation. He is living temporarily in the 300 gallon sump with a porcupine puffer who is quite the aggressive type. He does not bother the angel but you can tell the angel does not care for him in the tank and swims away from him. Do you think its stress causing the personifer angel's color loss or you think it could also be diet related?

Finally, all other fish in this tank have excellent color and behavior. Its just the potter and personifer with the color loss.

 

[leebca]

As a matter of fact, Angels are very prone to get into eating ruts in the wild. More than almost any other of the ornamental marine fishes, these tend to find a favorite food then dine on it almost exclusively. Just something to hold in your mind.

Color and brilliance is sometimes a matter of lighting. Just be sure your lighting is not old and is proper for their colors.

Another point I hasten to make is that a fish reported to eat detritus will not be able to live on detritus in the captive life. It is simply like any specialized eater -- the diversity in the captive aquarium is far below that found in the wild.

If you're really that concerned, then you might want to proceed with a de-worming treatment, even if they were de-wormed before. A treatment with the three best de-wormer meds is the thing to perform. This can be done while in their home, but if they refuse the food or are competitively kept from getting the proper dose, they will need to be hospitalized. A fish that shares its nutrients with a parasite will not be very brightly colored or reach it full color/pattern potential.

Once the matter of a parasite is out of the equation, you may review how much and the kinds of vitamin supplements these fishes get. Is it varied and enough?

whole meaty marine animals chopped up like clams, squid, octopus, fish, shrimp, scallops, etc.

This list doesn't contain that many 'whole' foods, unless I'm missing something.

The clams, if whole are whole. Squid is usually only the flesh. Squid eyes are good, but so much has to be cleaned out of the squid that the flesh is about all that is left. Fish I don't know -- heads, guts, organs, fins, etc. is what you mean? Shrimp usually is just tails. Are you feeding the heads, skeleton, guts, etc.? Scallops we buy are just the meat.

Include more whole foods like: krill, ocean plankton, marine pods, marine mysis, marine fish eggs and/or marine invertebrate eggs. Feed some gut loaded brine shrimp one out of every 7 meals. Feed marine mussels if you can. Include a rare feed of live small brown worms, frozen blood worms, and Cyclopeze.

If you want to boost color, one way is to gut load your own brine shrimp with Astaxanthin powder. Since brine shrimp ingest anything that comes along and of the right size, they will carry this into the fish that eat them. Feed these live gut loaded brine shrimp as an extra meal every other day for a month. If the Astaxanthin trick works, then the fish are not getting enough krill and ocean plankton in their diets. (The skeleton of these marine foods contain this product).

I would drop the use of any land products. They usually just don't sit right with marine fishes, even if they are nutritious enough. I fall back on my usual statement: marine fish only eat seafoods. Check the nori -- is it truly macro algae and is it truly raw (or has it been cooked/baked/roasted)?

If the diet is the cause for the lack of luster, then after de-worming and following the above, they should return to their normal brilliance.

If stress has been hard on them, they will sometimes not allow themselves to show their full brilliance in order to keep a low profile. If they feed vigorously like you have reported, then at the time of feeding they will often brighten up and you can tell form this that their lack luster appearance is artificial.

Although stress doesn't take that big of toll on the visual quality of the eating, acclimated fish (except as noted above), it can be the cause of the fish consuming extra nutrients and thus in need of more (quantity) than the usual nutrients.

 

[csababubbles]

just to clarify, the squid, shrimp, octopus, fish, and other things I mentioned are the complete animal, nothing removed except the ink packets in the squid. the shrimp is the whole shrimp, not just the tails. flesh, organs, shells, eyes, skeletons, everything is ground up in a blender and then frozen for later use. the only thing on my list that is not whole are the scallops, which is just the flesh. i forgot to mention I do indeed feed ocean plankton, krill, and mysis.

youve got a good point in that it could very well be that the potter has found a favorite food and is not eating the other things floating by like I think he is. i gotta do some better observation on this one.

vitamins and fats i use include selcon, selco, vitachem, zoe, and zoecon. i use one every day, alternating between them.

lighting is not the problem (eight new t5 tubes, with a mixture of actinics) since all the other fish look brilliant.

I will try the deworming like you suggested as well as the Astaxanthin powder loaded brine. Can I use the prazi-pro soaked food in the display since it is a fowlr? also, you say to use the three best meds...are you suggesting a cocktail of them? or alternate them? I would think you meant just pick one out of the top three but since they were already de-wormed in QT I was wondering you are are suggesting something different now like you did with the double dose of marycn 2 for my puffer.

 

[leebca]

That's good news. I don't see how it would be a nutritional issue then.

The triple de-wormer is the Jungle anti-parasitic product. It contains three of the best de-worming medications all in one. These parasites fall into different groups. The active ingredients in this food are levamisole, metrodinazole, and praziquantel. If not Jungle then any product containing these three is the best choice for 'serious' attack on intestinal parasites, above and beyond just worms.

Good luck!

 

[leebca]

Since you make your own food, then on the next batch add some Astaxanthin to your formula. Add it at about the rate of 1 oz of powder to a pound of the blended food.

However, don't get addicted to it! [joke] Astaxanthin has a smell most humans are strangely attracted to, when in 'light quantities.' Don't go sniffing the package or you'll miss a fish feeding.

 

[csababubbles]

lol, i'll keep that in mind