Marine Velet

[csababubbles]

Lee,

One of my tanks has come down with Marine Velvet. I was away on vacation when the tank sitter noticed a velvety sheen on the fish. When I got home one of my anthias had died already. I read up on diseases and have specified the disease in my tank as marine velvet. I have administered a half dose of Cupramine earlier tonight (as per instructions of 1mL per 10 gallons).

So now my butterfly and angel have died just a few minutes ago. I have a marine betta, anthia, dog faced puffer and black mollies still alive.

The only other fish that "looks" infected is the puffer. He is covered in the tiny white spots and is very unusual lethargic.

Do I do a freshwater dip on the puffer tonight to ease him?
Do I add the final dose of the Cupramine tomorrow instead of waiting 48 hours?
Do I get formalin tomorrow at the pet store and give him a bath? Will that kill the puffer because of his already reduced health?
Do I just sit still and hope for the best with the current treatment time frame? I know the Cupramine will work but I am nervous because of the rapid death loss occuring that the puffer wont make it.

Thank you.

 

[leebca]

Sorry for the losses. Marine Velvet is one of the worst, since it kills much quicker than most other diseases and parasites. Sounds like something go around quarantine. I hope you do use a quarantine system.

Basic approach: It is better to FW bath a fish that might die than to let it go forth and probably die. So first answer, Yes. FW dip any fish that looks like it will shortly die. That is better than 'nothing' at this stage, despite the extra stress a FW dip will incur. Just as long as you and other readers here understand, the FW dip is not a cure.

Add the final dose of Cupramine NOW. Be sure to check the copper level. You can to exert close control over copper concentration. Use a Salifert Copper test kit that is not past its expiry date.

I would not recommend a formalin treatment. Too harsh at this stage, IMO.

Your last question and concern is noted above.

Good luck!

 

[csababubbles]

I freshwater dipped last night for 14 minutes with methylene blue. The puffer was very relaxed during the dip and I could have gone longer but decided to cut it at 14 min. I found a huge amount of crap in the bottom of the freshwater bucket after the dip.

After the dip he acted much better and actually started swimming a bit around the tank, as opposed to before where he would just sit on top of the powerhead. He still has all the tiny spots all over him though. Was the dip long enough?

I will add the final dose of cupramine in a few minutes.

Lee, should I do another freshwater dip today? Or anytime soon?

As for the Cupramine concentration, the manufact. states to keep it at .5mg/l but also states anywhere between .3 and .8 works. Given my circumstances and the fish being treated (puffer, betta, anthia) do you recommend any specific level? ( I know you recommended in the past 0.3 for angels, but I can't find anything on my particular fish)

 

[NC2WA]

csabubbles,

I hope you did not lose the regal and personifier angels?? If so, sorry for your loss.

 

[leebca]

After the initial dip and you've raised the copper to the proper level, there should be no reason or need to do any further FW dips.

The dip was long enough.

Keep the copper at about 0.4 to 0.6 ppm. 0.5 ppm is read right on the Salifert scale.

 

[csababubbles]

Sadly I lost the puffer and last anthia at 2pm today. I added the final dose of copper and watched as the puffer swam around looking a bit better that the past few days. I said goodbye to him for the last time and went back to work. If I knew that was the last time I was going to see him I would have stayed home from work to be with him for the last few hours of his little life.

My 125 tank got wiped out. Losses included the black puffer, personifier angel, teardrop butterfly (one of my first fish I ever got), and an entire school of anthias. The only survivers in this tank as of now are the Marine Betta, a Randall Goby, and 7 black mollies.

I buried my puffer tonight under the japanese maple tree in my front yard that I planted this past fall. I miss him.

 

[NC2WA]

sorry to hear..that hurts...I know your pain..i had marine velvet wipe out my entire 90g tank (4 fish total) when I lived in NC. I had a naso tang and maroon clownfish for 5 yrs that were lost..my wife cried for 1 day as the maroon clownfish was her baby.

Any idea how marine velvet got introduced into the tank??

 

[Maxx]

Sorry to hear of your losses.....

I was curious as to how the velvet got into your system as well?

Nick

 

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of this. Although of absolutely no comfort and under the current circumstances, I can say that usually when Marine Velvet becomes 'obvious' it is too late to save the fishes. Although (thank goodness) not as common as Marine Ich, it is nonetheless a fast killer.

 

[csababubbles]

I don't know how or when it got introduced into my aquarium. The only thing I have not quarantined are the 7 black mollies but they came from PetSmart and they only have freshwater tanks so I dont see how that could have transferred in the velvet. But I am keeping a VERY close eye on the rest of my tanks to see any abnormal behavior, breathing, etc. so if it did spread to my other tanks I can try and treat it as soon as possible.

Lee, besides the >90 breathes per minute, unusual behavior, lethargic, spots and velvety sheen on the skin, are there any other things I can do to check for velvet? I was thinking to do a freshwater bath on some of the fish and see if there is any of the cysts in the bath.....

I wonder if I should do a copper treatment of my 220 tank that houses my Idol, panda puffer, regal angel, etc? Its a fowlr but I would rather kill some live rock then all my fish. I was always worried about my fang blenny flashing and scratching against the glass that I brought up to you a few months ago. So now that one of my tanks is infected I may have inadvertently introduced it to my other tanks.

 

[leebca]

Add to your list of symptoms, "flashing" and those are about the top indicators before visual.

A freshwater dip will usually knock some off which are just barely visible to the naked eye in the dip water, after settling.

Quarantine all equipment (nets, etc.) used on/in the contaminated tank. You may want to clean other equipment as if it was contaminated.

A copper treatment of a FOWLR system can haver serious consequences to other marine lifeforms. If you have a substrate, it will take up the copper and potentially release it later, killing marine life (sometimes fishes). If you have a substrate, there are probably a lot of worms, pods, etc. in that substrate.

Copper won't just kill off life on the LR, but will also attach itself to the LR. The LR can be ruined for aquarium use, not just killed off.

I think of the tank doesn't have a substrate, you're on better footing treating the whole tank. You can remove some chunks of the live rock and handle biological poisons through water changes and chemical filtration.

Good luck!

 

[csababubbles]

Let me get this straight....

My 220 tank with all those fish I listed has only live rock, no sand at all (bare bottom).

So you DO recommend I add the cupramine to this tank? The only thing I should do is take out a portion of the live rock and QT it for 8 weeks so that at least I could have some live rock in the system after the treatment that was never copper'ed. And before I put that live rock back in the system I should do several water changes and also run a boat-load of carbon for a few weeks to try and get rid of the remaining copper (after the copper treatment)?

Will it be advisable to increase the copper level slower then the manufacturer recommendation of two doses in 48 hours? I was thinking over the course of a week so that the fish and biological filter can acclimate a bit better to the copper? Do I have anything to worry about with my fish list in regards to negative reactions to the Cupramine Copper:

Moorish Idol
Copperband Butterfly
Saddleback Butterfly
Regal Angel
Potter Angel
Panda Puffer
Several species of anthias
Mozambique fang blenny
Cardinals
Porcupine Puffer

 

[csababubbles]

I just finished a 12 minute freshwater dip on one of my cardinals in the 220 tank. There is a lot of "stuff" on the bottom of the freshwater bucket including lots of little specs but also larger particles like a copod, some algae, some detritus that I am sure I introduced when I caught the fish in the net. So how do I know what is what? If I buy a microscope, what do I look for? Are tyhe cysts black, white? do they float or settle?

Should I just go ahead and treat the tank given the circumstances?

 

[leebca]

The discussion regarding the treatment in the FOWLR system was just informative. My recommendation is that you don't treat the system unless you believe or know it is infected. If unsure, don't treat. The system you've describe though, will lend itself to a treatment unlike many other FOWLR systems.

I can't describe what you should be seeing in the microscope. However, search the Internet for photos of detached Marine Velvet parasites.

You see, the way I perform my FW bath is using the colander. Very little carry over of tank or bag water. Settled particles in the FW dip water the size of pin points is what I am looking for. Few other parasites or situations will show up like this.

Did you look closely at the FW dip water after you dipped the Puffer? First hand experience is the best training.

I don't see anything on your list that will not tolerate the Cupramine treatment. The treatment should follow bottle recommendations. After the second addition, you'll need to monitor the copper closely since it will be 'disappearing' and need replenishment based upon test kit results.

 

[csababubbles]

update:

cupramine levels are at .5 at this time and I have been holding it steady with small additions. testing the copper levels with both a salifert kit and a seachem kit. fish are still alive and eating. i actually found a snail still alive in the tank that I missed when I was removing the inverts. got him out quick, hopefully he survives after the copper exposure.

where is the copper disappearing to? does the live rock absorb it?

 

[NC2WA]

yes, live rock absorbs it and it is very hard, if not impossible, to totally remove it from the rock.

 

[leebca]

All carbonate-based materials in the tank will act like a sponge to the copper. That is one things that makes their presence so dangerous. Later on, after the treatment, this copper can 'suddenly' release, killing marine life.

Some, but very little, gets complexed even with the carbonates in the marine water itself.

 

[NC2WA]

csabubbles,

you might try putting some PolyFilters in your sump to soak up the carbon from the tank, but this is NOT a guarantee it will get it all and you risk what leebca said about suddenly release back into the system.

 

[csababubbles]

what would cause a sudden release of the absorbed copper back into the system?

 

[NC2WA]

from the reading I have done, this is a natural process of the breakdown of the copper ions, nothing you can do can prevent this from occuring.

However, I defer to Lee to correct or add any statements on this subject.