my one-spot rabbit died last night

[jill]

"Bugs" was my first fish - we got him in April and he helped establish the tank by eating a bunch of hair algae.
Had grown and seemed happy. We have added a puffer, tang, clown, royal gramma, blenny, firefish, sandsifter, 3 angels and a dottyback. Everyone looks great. I have xenias, candy cane, mushrooms, stick polyps, clove polyps, starburst, leathers, acropora and several digitata. I also have 3 types of anemone.
Water parameters are all good and I am running carbon. We did have a cyano outbreak about a month ago but I fixed the RO.
Last night all was well but this morning Bugs was floating and one of the anemones had moved to his spot.
Any ideas on why Bugs had to die?
Thanks Lee.

 

[leebca]

Sorry to hear about this passing. To me, these fishes are pets and friends of a sort, so each loss is hard.

You provided a lot of information, but still not quite enough. Keep in mind this is a 'best guess' scenario so even if you do provide all the missing information, the passing of the fish may still be an unknown.

But if you're willing to put the time into providing the information, I'll put in the time to help try to figure it out. I need the following details and my 'best guess' becomes less and less reliable with every bit of information you decide to skip over or say 'I don't know' instead of getting the information. Okay? Here's the list of questions and things I yet need to know:

How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use: skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration? List all along with their maintenance. You say you use carbon. How often do you change it? How much of it do you use (in volume -- like a quart, cup, or ?)?
Do you have live rock in the system? How many pounds or amount and where is it put? (e.g., also mention how you have it landscaped).
A photo of your aquarium would help, if you can.
Your list of livestock is good, but you've provided generic terms for the fish. I would like to know what kind of Tang, what kind of Angels, etc. So if you could identify each fish, preferably with their scientific name. Also, I want to know their size. Estimate the size of each of those fishes (estimating their length in inches from the tip of their nose to the base of their tail -- tail not included). Have a ruler with you when you do these estimates.
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules. How often and how much food do you feed?
Tell me more about when you acquired "Bugs." How was the fish acclimated to the tank. That is, tell me where the fish came from and how you acclimated it to the first place you put it and then
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any food or water additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. I would like test kit test results, not dip stick results and actual numbers even if you think all is fine/okay. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
You said something went wrong with your RO. Tell me what went wrong exactly. How did you discover the problem?
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.? You did mention seeing some cyano growth, so the above list is 'other than the cyano you already mentioned.'
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.). Do you test the source water for purity? If so, what tests do you perform?
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

Answers to the above questions may still lead to other questions. So, if you want to enter into this exercise, be patient.

 

[jill]

Answers

Lee, thank you so much for your detailed questions and willingness to help. I was really shook up when I found Bugs dead. I'm glad to hear that you understand my grief.

A little background on me: we went into this thing with the intention of having a man we knew perform all the maintenance on the tank. We would pay him to come once a week and do everything. We would simply feed the fishys and enjoy them. After many, many MANY things went wrong with his service we reached a turning point. If we wanted to do this then I would have to learn how to do it myself. My husband works too much. I didn't want us (or our innocent fishes) to depend on someone that was unreliable.

Here are the answers to your questions:

I have posted a picture of our acrylic tank. It is 64" long, 24" deep and 31" high (I would have never have let that happen if I knew anything about cleaning it later!)
The DT is 250, the sump is 75 (this includes the 35 g fuge).

I am currently using a Reef Octopus 200 but have an ATI Bubble Master 250. I found that it foamed excessivly when I put in additives (I think its the Aquavitro Calcium that does it) but since talking with "skimmerwhisperer" (Mark) I am going to add my stuff in much smaller quanties just more often. I am going to put the BM 250 back in soon.
I empty my collection cup everyday.

I started carbon the day before Bugs died. I have 2 long socks, each filled with about 2 cups of marineland carbon.

My other equipment:
Coralife 1740 return pump with 6 returns to the middle of the tank.
2 Koralia turbo pumps - 4 and 8 on the weir wall.
Oceanic 1/2 h Chiller

Back to the beginning:
We have about 350 lb of live rock. Most is in the DT but there is about 30 lb in the refugium. You can see the landscaping in the picture. The fish have lots of caves to hide in but Bugs was too big and had a place outside.

In early March we put 150 lb of live fiji rock into pure RO water and cycled. We went through the ugly green slime, then brown slime and by mid April we had large, lush flowing macroalgae.
I was using AP tests at the time (the ones with the color charts rather than numbers). One April 1 the Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia were 0. My ph was 8.3 (estimated by the color chart), KH 9 and Ca 500.

We put Bugs in the tank on April 15. He was terrified by himself (and wouldn't eat) so I insisted on adding a small Valentini puffer for company 2 days later. Bugs felt immediately better and started to eat all the macro algae.

Bugs was 4" (all these measurements will be from the end of their tall like you said).

Here are the other fish:

Canthigaster Valentina 2"
Premnas Biaculeatus 1 1/2"
Chrysiptera cyanea 1"
Nematele Otris Decora 2"
Gramma loreto 1"
Valenciennea strigata 4"
Zebrasoma xanthurum 3"
Pseudochromis fridmani 1"
Ecsenius midas 4"
Pomacanthus navarchus 3/4"
Centropyge bispinosus 2 1/2"
Centropyge flavissimus 3"

I don't remember if I told you about the other creatures.
We also have 1 coral banded shrimp - Stenopus hispidus and 2 Lysmata debelius.

I just remembered that we found Bugs dead wedged between the rocks and the weir wall. That is where the coral banded shrimp lives.

We have not quarantined because our LFS did it for us.

I have every kind of frozen food that my supplier stocks and I rotate what I feed in order to maintain variety.

I was feeding 3-4 frozen cubes and a teaspoon of dry pellets. Bugs and the tang are (were) big eaters.
Sometimes I will get a fresh scallop or live oyster and cut it into little tiny pieces instead of the frozen.

The frozen foods are :
Sallys Frozen Mussel
Sallys Angel and Butterflyfish food
Lifeline Mysis Shrimp
Hikari Mysis and Spirolina
Cyclops
H2O Life Fish and Reef #2 (for tangs and angels)

The pellets are:
Ocean Nutrician Formula 2
Ocean Nutrician Nano Reef
Hikari Marine A

I had tried to give Ocean Nutriciam dried Red Algae and
H2O life Green Seaweed but I had no takers.

I would also bring up some grape calurpa from the refugium for Bugs and the Tang every few days for a treat.

I should also mention here that all the fish (especially the puffer) were doing alot of grazing on the rock because up until a few weeks ago there were thousand of copepods that would come out of the rock when the lights went off. We don't have nearly as many now for some reason.

I feed at about 9 am and then 7 pm. I have recently started to add a very small feeding at about 2pm.

We live about 10 minutes away from the LFP. When we first put Bugs in the tank we followed the normal procedure of letting the bag temp adjust to the tank, then every 15 minutes adding a small amount of tank water. We let him loose in about an hour.

I don't use any fish vitamins or fat additives.
I use the Aquavitro line:
Eight-four - one full cap every day.
Reef - one full cap 2x a week
Calcification - inner cap 2 x week
Balance - one inner cap 2 x week
Vibrance - one inner cap 2x a week

I add 2 ounces Ultimate Water Conitioner when ever I do a water change which is usually 2 x a week. (more changes if my nitrates are above 0)

My salt is Tropic Marin Pro Reef.
I am trying to get my salinity to 1.025 but its usually been 1.023 - currently its 1.024.

I keep my temperature between 77-79.

I didn't trust the AP tests so I purchased all the Sailfert tests. I have the Seachem Magnesium, Iodine and Alkalinity tests. I also have the Elos Calcium and Nitrate tests. I really like those. Did use AP for Nitrite and Ammonia and they tested 0.

I last tested on Saturday and then did a water change.
Here are my measurements.

Iodide .05 (Seachem)
Alkalinity 2.5 (Seachem)
Magnesium 1325 (Salifert)
Calcium 370 (Elos)
KH 10 (Salifert)
Nitrate 10 (Elos)

My pH is troublesome. The AP test color reading looked like 8.3 but I didn't trust it so I got a digital meter. I found that my pH hovers between 7.9-8.05. I am constantly adding Eight-Four but it never changes.

The RO system has been a huge issue. This is one of the reasons we stopped working the the original fish maintenence person. He couldn't get it right. The RO feeds
the refrigerator, a line for water changes and one of a float top off. The refrigerator TDS read 0 so we thought all was well. We had to change 3 different units so we thought we finally got it right.

Two months ago I had a horrible outbreak of red slime cyano. I couldn't figure it out. Then I measured the TDS of the water flowing to the tanks and found they measured 255! Our tap water is only 34. Somehow all the waste had been flowing into the tank.

We now have a huge RO from Culligan that works properly and I have been cyano free for the past month.

My tank looks pristine now. I have to scrape off some little patches of brown slime every week from the acrylic but its not a big deal.

Okay, one final thing - a friend of mine just stopped by and I showed him where we found Bugs. He wondered if Bugs just got himself wedged between the rock and weir and couldn't get out. That sounds so simple but now I'm wondering if maybe thats it??

Sorry for the long message but I really appreciate your willingness to help.
Thank you.
Jill

 

[jill]

I just looked at my original message and saw that I wrote "he was floating". He wasnt - he was actually wedged between a rock and the back of the weir. I had to pull him out. I don't know if that matters.

 

[leebca]

Thanks Jill for the information. I can start making some observations, which may or may not have any effect on the demise of Bugs. NOTE that in the following list I have asked for more information. We'll take it one step at a time.

1. I don't think you should be concerned about finding the fish at the weir. A dieing/sick fish is pretty much at the whim of tank intakes and circulation. Some think it caused the death of a fish, but in reality a healthy fish isn't bothered by such things. Also, it wouldn't be unusual for the shrimp to latch onto the dead fish pretty fast. (BUT, see also 10.).

2. Sorry you've had trouble with the maintenance people. It is still a hobby to many people, rather than a business. Finding a knowledgeable person to do it is hard enough without expecting professionalism too. To know the quality of the maintenance person, you almost have to know how to do it the right way yourself. But there's not much you can do about being dependable.

3. I'm concerned the carbon was so close to the loss of the fish. This can imply the carbon was 'no good' or questionable. So tell me more about the carbon, if you will. Who makes it? How was it packaged? Do you still have any packaging left? What was the product actually called on the package? Was it washed before you used it? What was it washed in? How was it washed?

4. Tell me more about the socks used for the carbon. What are they made out of? What is their pore size? By this I mean what size particle do they filter? This is usually given in microns (50, 100, 200, 500, etc. microns). Were they washed before their first use? How were they washed? In what were they washed?

5. Why did you decide to add carbon to the system after the time you've had it set up?

6. You empty the collection cup of the skimmer every day, but how often do you clean the tube the bubbles rise up inside? The answer should be daily or every other day. A clean skimmer works efficiently, and they become dirty quickly. The area the bubbles rise in needs to be cleaned often with just RO/DI water and a cloth or sponge dedicated to that cleaning.

7.

In early March we put 150 lb of live fiji rock into pure RO water and cycled.

I don't understand the paragraph beginning with this. Was this in addition to the 350 or part of it? Why in RO? and not saltwater? Why was this done? Help me understand this part better, please.

8. I'm concerned about your numbers and the additives. Maybe you missed an important point about Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium. Although they have their range, they are supposed to be in balance. This many hobbyists aren't told or don't know. They think keeping them in the range they were given is all they have to do. But actually, they not only have to be in range, but they have to be properly balanced with each other. THIS is what controls the pH and the buffering ability of the water. I'd like you to look at the chart given in this post (and the read the post for other information): What is Water Quality. For instance, let's take a look some of the readings for Calcium. One was too high (off the chart); and one was too low (below the chart). If you have, for instance a Calcium level of 410 ppm, then the balanced Alkalinity for that calcium is 7.0 dKh or 2.50 meq/l and the corresponding Magnesium is 1150. That is a balance set of readings, all of which are in their proper range. I'd like you to follow the directions in that post I linked you to and start to move the numbers into balance, based on that chart. Remember to follow the directions there. Make small changes and check 48 hours after the change. You should find that your pH is in a better area and the system is stabilized. This should address your pH problems.

9. Make sure your pH meter is calibrated often using standards.

10. The CB Shrimp is a bit tricky. Some grow very accustomed to captive life and turn nasty to their tankmates. Some do attack fishes. It is not outside of the possibility that Bugs died from a surprise attack at night, IF the CBS is large enough.

11. I don't see any concern with the rest of your marine life list. Do you really have a Pomacanthus navarchus that small? Very unusual.

12. I would really doubt the LFS is doing a proper job at quarantine. They really can't afford to it the right way, so the vast majority don't do it correctly. You have a nice collection, I would begin your own quarantine process before adding any other life form to the system. There are posts here to help you with that -- step-by-step.

13. Feed no fresh seafood unless you've frozen it at one time. I like feeding clam too. I just drop the opened clam into the water and let them rip at it. Gives them some entertainment. BUT, the living clam was previously frozen solid for a couple of days. When it thaws it will open a little bit and you can finish opening it, rinsing in RO/DI and then putting in (or chopping it up). The freezing will kill almost all higher forms of parasites and pathogens.

14. Feeding seems to be good. At vitamins and fat supplements to the foods. Rinse all foods so as not to add juice to the water (which only feeds the bacteria and 'brown algae' you keep seeing). Read ingredients and choose foods that list ONLY sea food and no land products. Avoid pellets except for maybe a feeding once every 21 feedings. They contain wheat to bind them and fish don't digest wheat or wheat products (e.g., gluten) which just adds to water pollution when it passes through the fish or gets stuck in their digestive track.

15. Keep offering marine macro algae. They are just not familiar with it, but some of the fish on your list need vegetables in their diet. Some info here on that: How to Feed Macro Algae to Marine Fishes on how much to offer. The treat of fresh macro algae is good, but they need it daily.

16. I take note that the tank was poisoned a couple of months ago. Not good. We don't really know what kind of chemicals could have gotten in there. We measure only a limited amount of the water chemistry. What the RO/DI unit does is take out the drugs, pesticides, fertilizers, etc. which even in small quantities, slowly kill our captive fishes. After such an event you need to pull yourself up and undertake a huge project -- a huge water change to remove as much of the poison as you can. If you didn't it isn't too late. Do a water change that amounts to at least 80% (or more if you can) of the total system volume. Follow the good guidelines for a large water change given here: How to Make a Successful Water Change.

17. What is your source water? RO water? You chose not to use a RO/DI unit? Before this new unit, you were using tap water for your source water? I'm probably not reading this right. Maybe you had an old RO unit that wasn't working properly? This is the poison source I'm referring to in 16.

18. The acclimation process you used is a good one, only it should have taken about 4 to 5 hours to acclimate this fish. More info on that here: Fish Acclimation Procedure.

19. You're using one of the top of the line salts -- probably too good actually. But it's interesting, since if it is mixed with tap water, you just lost most the value of that high quality salt. Tap water is the worst. I hope this wasn't true.

20. Why do you add a water conditioner when you make a water change? Don't do that for the recommended 80% water change.

21. Feeding frequency should be increased to three times a day. (Remember in the wild these fish eat ALL the time). The feedings should be large enough such that the fish begin to show a noticeable less interest in the food coming into the aquarium. Feed slowly and see that it is all eaten. You will learn what quantity is best after a few days. Don't forget they grow, so add more now and then to see if they are still eating, at the mid-day feeding.

22. When and what was last added to your tank in the way of marine life?

The picture is coming into focus. Just a few outstanding questions I still have which are woven into the above observations. Please post the answers.

Also, post any question you have about my recommendations or observations. I try to explain why or how my recommendations are given, but miss some. The posts I have linked will answer many of your questions, I'm sure, and provide background on some of the recommendations that may seem odd or unexplained. Take some time to read those linked posts too for additional information. For instance, how do you know your skimmer is sized properly? That is in the Water Quality post.

 

[jill]

Next steps

Thanks Jill for the information. I can start making some observations, which may or may not have any effect on the demise of Bugs. NOTE that in the following list I have asked for more information. We'll take it one step at a time.

1. I don't think you should be concerned about finding the fish at the weir. A dieing/sick fish is pretty much at the whim of tank intakes and circulation. Some think it caused the death of a fish, but in reality a healthy fish isn't bothered by such things. Also, it wouldn't be unusual for the shrimp to latch onto the dead fish pretty fast. (BUT, see also 10.).

2. Sorry you've had trouble with the maintenance people. It is still a hobby to many people, rather than a business. Finding a knowledgeable person to do it is hard enough without expecting professionalism too. To know the quality of the maintenance person, you almost have to know how to do it the right way yourself. But there's not much you can do about being dependable.

3. I'm concerned the carbon was so close to the loss of the fish. This can imply the carbon was 'no good' or questionable. So tell me more about the carbon, if you will. Who makes it? How was it packaged? Do you still have any packaging left? What was the product actually called on the package? Was it washed before you used it? What was it washed in? How was it washed?

4. Tell me more about the socks used for the carbon. What are they made out of? What is their pore size? By this I mean what size particle do they filter? This is usually given in microns (50, 100, 200, 500, etc. microns). Were they washed before their first use? How were they washed? In what were they washed?

5. Why did you decide to add carbon to the system after the time you've had it set up?

6. You empty the collection cup of the skimmer every day, but how often do you clean the tube the bubbles rise up inside? The answer should be daily or every other day. A clean skimmer works efficiently, and they become dirty quickly. The area the bubbles rise in needs to be cleaned often with just RO/DI water and a cloth or sponge dedicated to that cleaning.

7. I don't understand the paragraph beginning with this. Was this in addition to the 350 or part of it? Why in RO? and not saltwater? Why was this done? Help me understand this part better, please.

8. I'm concerned about your numbers and the additives. Maybe you missed an important point about Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium. Although they have their range, they are supposed to be in balance. This many hobbyists aren't told or don't know. They think keeping them in the range they were given is all they have to do. But actually, they not only have to be in range, but they have to be properly balanced with each other. THIS is what controls the pH and the buffering ability of the water. I'd like you to look at the chart given in this post (and the read the post for other information): What is Water Quality. For instance, let's take a look some of the readings for Calcium. One was too high (off the chart); and one was too low (below the chart). If you have, for instance a Calcium level of 410 ppm, then the balanced Alkalinity for that calcium is 7.0 dKh or 2.50 meq/l and the corresponding Magnesium is 1150. That is a balance set of readings, all of which are in their proper range. I'd like you to follow the directions in that post I linked you to and start to move the numbers into balance, based on that chart. Remember to follow the directions there. Make small changes and check 48 hours after the change. You should find that your pH is in a better area and the system is stabilized. This should address your pH problems.

9. Make sure your pH meter is calibrated often using standards.

10. The CB Shrimp is a bit tricky. Some grow very accustomed to captive life and turn nasty to their tankmates. Some do attack fishes. It is not outside of the possibility that Bugs died from a surprise attack at night, IF the CBS is large enough.

11. I don't see any concern with the rest of your marine life list. Do you really have a Pomacanthus navarchus that small? Very unusual.

12. I would really doubt the LFS is doing a proper job at quarantine. They really can't afford to it the right way, so the vast majority don't do it correctly. You have a nice collection, I would begin your own quarantine process before adding any other life form to the system. There are posts here to help you with that -- step-by-step.

13. Feed no fresh seafood unless you've frozen it at one time. I like feeding clam too. I just drop the opened clam into the water and let them rip at it. Gives them some entertainment. BUT, the living clam was previously frozen solid for a couple of days. When it thaws it will open a little bit and you can finish opening it, rinsing in RO/DI and then putting in (or chopping it up). The freezing will kill almost all higher forms of parasites and pathogens.

14. Feeding seems to be good. At vitamins and fat supplements to the foods. Rinse all foods so as not to add juice to the water (which only feeds the bacteria and 'brown algae' you keep seeing). Read ingredients and choose foods that list ONLY sea food and no land products. Avoid pellets except for maybe a feeding once every 21 feedings. They contain wheat to bind them and fish don't digest wheat or wheat products (e.g., gluten) which just adds to water pollution when it passes through the fish or gets stuck in their digestive track.

15. Keep offering marine macro algae. They are just not familiar with it, but some of the fish on your list need vegetables in their diet. Some info here on that: How to Feed Macro Algae to Marine Fishes on how much to offer. The treat of fresh macro algae is good, but they need it daily.

16. I take note that the tank was poisoned a couple of months ago. Not good. We don't really know what kind of chemicals could have gotten in there. We measure only a limited amount of the water chemistry. What the RO/DI unit does is take out the drugs, pesticides, fertilizers, etc. which even in small quantities, slowly kill our captive fishes. After such an event you need to pull yourself up and undertake a huge project -- a huge water change to remove as much of the poison as you can. If you didn't it isn't too late. Do a water change that amounts to at least 80% (or more if you can) of the total system volume. Follow the good guidelines for a large water change given here: How to Make a Successful Water Change.

17. What is your source water? RO water? You chose not to use a RO/DI unit? Before this new unit, you were using tap water for your source water? I'm probably not reading this right. Maybe you had an old RO unit that wasn't working properly? This is the poison source I'm referring to in 16.

18. The acclimation process you used is a good one, only it should have taken about 4 to 5 hours to acclimate this fish. More info on that here: Fish Acclimation Procedure.

19. You're using one of the top of the line salts -- probably too good actually. But it's interesting, since if it is mixed with tap water, you just lost most the value of that high quality salt. Tap water is the worst. I hope this wasn't true.

20. Why do you add a water conditioner when you make a water change? Don't do that for the recommended 80% water change.

21. Feeding frequency should be increased to three times a day. (Remember in the wild these fish eat ALL the time). The feedings should be large enough such that the fish begin to show a noticeable less interest in the food coming into the aquarium. Feed slowly and see that it is all eaten. You will learn what quantity is best after a few days. Don't forget they grow, so add more now and then to see if they are still eating, at the mid-day feeding.

22. When and what was last added to your tank in the way of marine life?

The picture is coming into focus. Just a few outstanding questions I still have which are woven into the above observations. Please post the answers.

Also, post any question you have about my recommendations or observations. I try to explain why or how my recommendations are given, but miss some. The posts I have linked will answer many of your questions, I'm sure, and provide background on some of the recommendations that may seem odd or unexplained. Take some time to read those linked posts too for additional information. For instance, how do you know your skimmer is sized properly? That is in the Water Quality post.

Wow. Thanks Lee.
Your comments are extremely helpful and eye-opening. I will respond to the ones I can right away and get back to you on the rest.

1. I have posted a picture of the back of the tank. Thats where my little Pomacanturs navarchus likes to hang out so here is a picture of her too. She has actually grown a little since we added her 6 weeks ago. I will be happy when she is gets big enough to stand up for herself against the angels. They charge her when ever they see her
Bugs was wedged between the rock and back wall. That is also where the CBS lives. His claw span is almost 4 inches so I am a little concerned. There didn't seem to be any marks on Bugs though. I have also posted a picture of Bugs that I took the day before he died.

3. The carbon is Marineland Premium Activated Carbon. It comes in a 1.87 L plastic jar. I didn't know to wash it so I didn't.

4. I used the socks recommended by the LFS. They are made for that purpose and are called "The Bag". I didn't wash them either.

5. I added the carbon after I read the your post "What is Water Quality". I was (and am) trying to integrate the recommendations into my maintenance routine. My water had a yellow tinge to it and I realized that I probably was dealing with "the organics" that can't be measured. The water is completely clear now and I don't have the micro bubble problem anymore either.

6. I do run a paper towel around the inside of the skimmer chamber every day. Do I need to actually take the skimmer out of the tank and to the sink?

7. I can see how that could be confusing. I meant to say that I put the 150 pounds of live rock in pure RO mixed with salt. I added 200 more pounds in later. The 200 pounds of rock had already been cured by my LFS. So I do have a total of 250 pounds of live rock.

8. I too am concerned about my numbers, additives and proportions. I am aware of the need to balance Alk, Cal and Mag after reading your Water Chemistry post so I will be getting back to you after I read it more closely. What are your thoughts on a Kalkwasser system?

9. I have been calibrating my pH meter as per manufacturer standards and on a monthly basis.

10. Should I get the CBS out of the tank?

11. How come its so unusual to have a small Pomacanthus naverchus?

12. I will do more research before we add anyone new. It will be awhile.

13. I am alarmed about what you said about no fresh food. I have been giving the gang a fresh live mussel or oyster about once a week. Have I completely polluted the tank? I lost two small Maxima Clams a month ago for no good reason and am now wondering if I introduced some kind of pathogen. What can I do?
I won't be doing it anymore.

14. What kinds of fat supplements should I be adding? How do you rinse the frozen food. It seems like it would just crumble away. I will also reduce the pellet feeding as you recommend.

15. I will read the post on feeding macro algae - I have been concerned that they weren't getting what they needed but didn't know what to do.

16. I will do the huge water change. No problem. I didn't know it was safe to to that before. I'll read the post.

17. I have always had an RO. The earlier ones worked for a while but then got somehow got polluted. In between the RO's working before I would go to the supermarket and bought gallons and gallons and gallons of DI. I am pretty sure that most of the water that has gone into that tank has been pure. I now have a HUGE EXPENSIVE unit that Culligan put in for us. It's a monster with an 90 gallon reserve tank. RO will not be a problem from now on.

18. I will read the acclimation post before the next fish is added.

19. I never mix anything with tap water except in the very beginning when my vendor said it was fine to do. I only did that for a very short time because even tho I'm a novice it just didn't seem right to me.

20. My LFS told me to add the conditioner. Said it would be good for the fish. I will stop that.

21. I feed my fishies 3 x today and will continue like you say. Makes sense to me! It is hard to know how much to add. Once I turn the jets back on the food flys around and the tank looks a little like a snow globe.

I will get back to you with more questions I am sure.
I can't thank you enough for all of your time and help Lee.
Jill

 

[jill]

this is the other picture of "Pommy" and the weir wall

Wow. Thanks Lee.
Your comments are extremely helpful and eye-opening. I will respond to the ones I can right away and get back to you on the rest.

1. I have posted a picture of the back of the tank. Thats where my little Pomacanturs navarchus likes to hang out so here is a picture of her too. She has actually grown a little since we added her 6 weeks ago. I will be happy when she is gets big enough to stand up for herself against the angels. They charge her when ever they see her
Bugs was wedged between the rock and back wall. That is also where the CBS lives. His claw span is almost 4 inches so I am a little concerned. There didn't seem to be any marks on Bugs though. I have also posted a picture of Bugs that I took the day before he died.

3. The carbon is Marineland Premium Activated Carbon. It comes in a 1.87 L plastic jar. I didn't know to wash it so I didn't.

4. I used the socks recommended by the LFS. They are made for that purpose and are called "The Bag". I didn't wash them either.

5. I added the carbon after I read the your post "What is Water Quality". I was (and am) trying to integrate the recommendations into my maintenance routine. My water had a yellow tinge to it and I realized that I probably was dealing with "the organics" that can't be measured. The water is completely clear now and I don't have the micro bubble problem anymore either.

6. I do run a paper towel around the inside of the skimmer chamber every day. Do I need to actually take the skimmer out of the tank and to the sink?

7. I can see how that could be confusing. I meant to say that I put the 150 pounds of live rock in pure RO mixed with salt. I added 200 more pounds in later. The 200 pounds of rock had already been cured by my LFS. So I do have a total of 250 pounds of live rock.

8. I too am concerned about my numbers, additives and proportions. I am aware of the need to balance Alk, Cal and Mag after reading your Water Chemistry post so I will be getting back to you after I read it more closely. What are your thoughts on a Kalkwasser system?

9. I have been calibrating my pH meter as per manufacturer standards and on a monthly basis.

10. Should I get the CBS out of the tank?

11. How come its so unusual to have a small Pomacanthus naverchus?

12. I will do more research before we add anyone new. It will be awhile.

13. I am alarmed about what you said about no fresh food. I have been giving the gang a fresh live mussel or oyster about once a week. Have I completely polluted the tank? I lost two small Maxima Clams a month ago for no good reason and am now wondering if I introduced some kind of pathogen. What can I do?
I won't be doing it anymore.

14. What kinds of fat supplements should I be adding? How do you rinse the frozen food. It seems like it would just crumble away. I will also reduce the pellet feeding as you recommend.

15. I will read the post on feeding macro algae - I have been concerned that they weren't getting what they needed but didn't know what to do.

16. I will do the huge water change. No problem. I didn't know it was safe to to that before. I'll read the post.

17. I have always had an RO. The earlier ones worked for a while but then got somehow got polluted. In between the RO's working before I would go to the supermarket and bought gallons and gallons and gallons of DI. I am pretty sure that most of the water that has gone into that tank has been pure. I now have a HUGE EXPENSIVE unit that Culligan put in for us. It's a monster with an 90 gallon reserve tank. RO will not be a problem from now on.

18. I will read the acclimation post before the next fish is added.

19. I never mix anything with tap water except in the very beginning when my vendor said it was fine to do. I only did that for a very short time because even tho I'm a novice it just didn't seem right to me.

20. My LFS told me to add the conditioner. Said it would be good for the fish. I will stop that.

21. I feed my fishies 3 x today and will continue like you say. Makes sense to me! It is hard to know how much to add. Once I turn the jets back on the food flys around and the tank looks a little like a snow globe.

I will get back to you with more questions I am sure.
I can't thank you enough for all of your time and help Lee.
Jill

I forgot to attach this picture of "Pommy" and the weir wall on my last post.

 

[leebca]

The picture is still coming into focus.

I'm only showing those items I'm commenting upon:

3. What happens when 'unwashed' carbon is used is that the fine powder enters the system and can and does attach to the mucous coating of the fish. This can create fish stress or even death in some cases. Activated carbon is great, but that fine dust that sometimes comes with it, can be problematic.

4. Almost the best rule of thumb: If it goes into, or comes into contact with, the system and it is new, wash and clean it first. Cloth filters sometimes have chemicals left over from when they were manufactured. Sometimes, cloth has sizing chemicals added to their processing.

6. Probably not. I don't know your skimmer configuration. But if you are wiping out the area the bubbles rise (inside the tube), then that is good enough. Paper towels slip into the problem of 4. I recommend switching to a dedicated sponge (thoroughly washed out before its first use) for this wipe. (You'll save some trees, too).

10. I would. At that size, and the small size of your fishes, I'd remove it. They are nice to have, but many do get an attitude after time and become a hazard.

11. They turn to their mature pattern while still fairly small and it is their mature pattern which people are attracted to.

13. (lucky 13.) It is very rare to carry in a disease or pathogen like this. Still it is very possible. The fact that you have/had clams and then adding clams that have not been 'sterilized' or quarantined, does open the door to many possibilities (all of them negative). The cause of death of the other clams needs it own review to be sure a worm or something else hasn't been introduced to the system. I'm not experienced with invertebrates so others may need to review their death and potential cause of death. How they die, shell appearance (e.g., hole or holes present), etc., are important in determining cause of death. At this point, just continue to observe other invertebrate behavior and health.

14. HUFAs. More info in the food post: Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition

21. If you add food that is consumed, then I'm unsure why it would fly around after the circulating pumps were turned back on. Hmmm. Something doesn't seem quite right. The larger the tank and the more inhabitants, the longer it takes to feed (generality). Feed until they loose interest. It isn't much different than when a parent knows its child is full -- they start losing attention to the food and feeding process. A time can't be set, because different foods are consumed at different rates and foods like brine shrimp (almost worthless) are mostly water so the fish will eat much more of them and still not be 'full.' A dense food like chopped clam would fill a fish fairly quickly (on the other end of the time-for-feeding scale). You'll get the hang of it with some time. You seem observant, intelligent and genuinely attentive, so feeding time will come with experience.

The cause(s) of death of Bugs will always remain an uncertainty, however with the information gathered so far, I'd put the likelihood to be in the following list. I've listed them in order of most likely to least likely. HOWEVER, it doesn't have to be just one thing. In fact I can almost guarantee you it isn't just one thing. These fish are sensitive to captive life and often don't do well because of personality or other issues. Here's the list of very broad terms:

Water quality
Acclimation
Pathogen
Nutrition
Environment

A few words about each:
Water quality covers everything I've pointed out in our posts including but not limited to: RO unit going astray, carbon powder, pollutant(s) from food, socks, additives being off, etc.

Acclimation includes not only at the time it came to your aquarium, but also how the fish may have been handled and acclimated along the capture and transfer route. It also includes that some fish actually take months to acclimate to captivity with the end result of not acclimating at all. This particular species of fish is very susceptible to this.

Pathogen from general sources -- not quarantining, clams, etc. A captive fish's immune system will usually weaken over time such that a relatively benign pathogen becomes a major threat.

Nutrition is a means for the fish to deal with the stresses caused by anyone or group of the above and below. If the nutritional requirements are met or exceeded, much of the above can be handled. However, if there is a 'stack' of stressors, even the best nutrition won't be enough to help.

Environment includes tank mate issues, including the CBS. We didn't really cover very closely if there was any other marine life in the tank that was chasing, bothering, or otherwise disturbing this fish.

I hope you find the above helpful/useful. You are welcome! I would not recommend you continue on with this thread unless it has to do with Bugs. However, please feel free to start another thread with any topic you'll like to discuss or get input on.

I would make one more recommendation. With the invertebrates you seem you want to keep, RO water is usually not good enough. A combination RO/DI is best for these life forms. If all you kept or wanted to keep was ornamental marine fishes, the RO would suffice.

 

[jill]

Final thanks on this one

The picture is still coming into focus.

I'm only showing those items I'm commenting upon:

3. What happens when 'unwashed' carbon is used is that the fine powder enters the system and can and does attach to the mucous coating of the fish. This can create fish stress or even death in some cases. Activated carbon is great, but that fine dust that sometimes comes with it, can be problematic.

4. Almost the best rule of thumb: If it goes into, or comes into contact with, the system and it is new, wash and clean it first. Cloth filters sometimes have chemicals left over from when they were manufactured. Sometimes, cloth has sizing chemicals added to their processing.

6. Probably not. I don't know your skimmer configuration. But if you are wiping out the area the bubbles rise (inside the tube), then that is good enough. Paper towels slip into the problem of 4. I recommend switching to a dedicated sponge (thoroughly washed out before its first use) for this wipe. (You'll save some trees, too).

10. I would. At that size, and the small size of your fishes, I'd remove it. They are nice to have, but many do get an attitude after time and become a hazard.

11. They turn to their mature pattern while still fairly small and it is their mature pattern which people are attracted to.

13. (lucky 13.) It is very rare to carry in a disease or pathogen like this. Still it is very possible. The fact that you have/had clams and then adding clams that have not been 'sterilized' or quarantined, does open the door to many possibilities (all of them negative). The cause of death of the other clams needs it own review to be sure a worm or something else hasn't been introduced to the system. I'm not experienced with invertebrates so others may need to review their death and potential cause of death. How they die, shell appearance (e.g., hole or holes present), etc., are important in determining cause of death. At this point, just continue to observe other invertebrate behavior and health.

14. HUFAs. More info in the food post: Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition

21. If you add food that is consumed, then I'm unsure why it would fly around after the circulating pumps were turned back on. Hmmm. Something doesn't seem quite right. The larger the tank and the more inhabitants, the longer it takes to feed (generality). Feed until they loose interest. It isn't much different than when a parent knows its child is full -- they start losing attention to the food and feeding process. A time can't be set, because different foods are consumed at different rates and foods like brine shrimp (almost worthless) are mostly water so the fish will eat much more of them and still not be 'full.' A dense food like chopped clam would fill a fish fairly quickly (on the other end of the time-for-feeding scale). You'll get the hang of it with some time. You seem observant, intelligent and genuinely attentive, so feeding time will come with experience.

The cause(s) of death of Bugs will always remain an uncertainty, however with the information gathered so far, I'd put the likelihood to be in the following list. I've listed them in order of most likely to least likely. HOWEVER, it doesn't have to be just one thing. In fact I can almost guarantee you it isn't just one thing. These fish are sensitive to captive life and often don't do well because of personality or other issues. Here's the list of very broad terms:

Water quality
Acclimation
Pathogen
Nutrition
Environment

A few words about each:
Water quality covers everything I've pointed out in our posts including but not limited to: RO unit going astray, carbon powder, pollutant(s) from food, socks, additives being off, etc.

Acclimation includes not only at the time it came to your aquarium, but also how the fish may have been handled and acclimated along the capture and transfer route. It also includes that some fish actually take months to acclimate to captivity with the end result of not acclimating at all. This particular species of fish is very susceptible to this.

Pathogen from general sources -- not quarantining, clams, etc. A captive fish's immune system will usually weaken over time such that a relatively benign pathogen becomes a major threat.

Nutrition is a means for the fish to deal with the stresses caused by anyone or group of the above and below. If the nutritional requirements are met or exceeded, much of the above can be handled. However, if there is a 'stack' of stressors, even the best nutrition won't be enough to help.

Environment includes tank mate issues, including the CBS. We didn't really cover very closely if there was any other marine life in the tank that was chasing, bothering, or otherwise disturbing this fish.

I hope you find the above helpful/useful. You are welcome! I would not recommend you continue on with this thread unless it has to do with Bugs. However, please feel free to start another thread with any topic you'll like to discuss or get input on.

I would make one more recommendation. With the invertebrates you seem you want to keep, RO water is usually not good enough. A combination RO/DI is best for these life forms. If all you kept or wanted to keep was ornamental marine fishes, the RO would suffice.

Again, thank you Lee for all of your advice.
I will follow your directions to the T.
Have a great weekend.
Jill