Need advice on my 200 gallon tank build

[J-dog]

I was talking to Krish today about the new build I'm doing and he suggested I start a thread to get additional advice. This will be my first attempt at putting my own system together....my previous tank, which was my first saltwater tank, was a Red Sea Max 250, so I didn't need to worry about anything since it was a plug-and-play. My new tank will be 60x30x24, which is about 185 gallons, with a 55 gallon sump. I am thinking about having a dual external overflow, but had no idea that different overflows had different rates. My question is what size return pump do I need to get a good flow in my tank? I've never plumbed a system before, so I am pretty much clueless. I plan on having 2 MP40's in the tank, along with 2 seaswirls. I want to have a lot of flow and turnover, but not so much that everything turns into a sand storm. Let me know what u guys think, thanks. Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated

Almost forgot, here is a link to the skimmer I was looking to purchase.....SKIMZ SM 201 Monzter E-Series - In-Sump Protein Skimmer - AquaCave.com
Not sure how good it is, but I heard it's super quiet and I want my system to be as silent as possible (especially since it's in our bonus room and we watch TV there a lot).

 

[Krish]

Two things I forgot to ask was are you having this tank custom built or is it a tank already built you are buying? If custom built, are you going with glass or acrylic and do you still have time to design your own overflow? Lastly, do you plan to run the sea-swirls (seeing you said you will use two) off of your sump return? Let us know.


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[J-dog]

Two things I forgot to ask was are you having this tank custom built or is it a tank already built you are buying? If custom built, are you going with glass or acrylic and do you still have time to design your own overflow? Lastly, do you plan to run the sea-swirls (seeing you said you will use two) off of your sump return? Let us know.

The tank will be custom built out of acrylic and I still have plenty of time to choose my overflow. As far as seaswirls, I was planning on using them, but nothing is set in stone.....If u have better ideas, I'd love to hear them and make the necessary changes.

 

[Krish]

When I get him I'll post a picture, but I'd look at doing a coast to coast overflow. They give you the best surface skimming you could ever want as well as you won't be as limited on the flow that the overflow can handle versus going with the traditional box style overflows.


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[mcoomer]

Coast to coast overflow with a bean animal drain setup. Have the fabricator put a 3" or 4" coast to coast overflow in with three holes for 1.5" bulkheads and PVC plumbing. Quietest overflow I've ever heard and it provides an emergency channel for drainage in the even that either of your two drains becomes obstructed or clogged.

First video shows an overflow after startup. There is an initial surge that submerges the air hose on the open channel and causes water to run into the upturned emergency channel. After that the water level drops and you'll hear (or not hear) that it's nearly dead silent.

Bean Overflow video

The second video provides a good view of a bean overflow using an external overflow box. I'm not a fan of external overflows, preferring a coast to coast with the plumbing running out of the tank via bulkheads but this will show the plumbing very clearly.

Bean Overflow video 2

Just tried to embed these videos and it's not working. Don't know if I'm doing it wrong or what but you'll have to click the links and watch the videos on YouTube. Finally, here is an exhaustive RC thread that details building one of these and why it works the way it does.

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Its one thing to go coast to coast but if you dont design your flow to take advantage of it, its not going to do you much good. SO if the C to C is going to used then you need to make sure the flow with in the tank turns the water from bottom to top and front to back. SO kind of like a barrel roll starting in the back bottom, then going to the front and then up and back to the overflow. If you go this route it also keeps detritus from building up in the back or in areas that are not easy to get to.

On the C to C you can use a number of methods, currently the bean seems to be popular. For mine I just have two 1 1/2 bulkheads behind the overflow going into a tee that takes it down to the sump. On the return its not usually a good idea to count on it for overall flow, just basically use it to get water to your filtration in the sump and then back up again. On you in tank flow you have to take a number of things into mind. It easy to use a couple of power heads but it doesnt take what going on in you tank in to thought.
So when you create flow in the tank the concept is to keep detritus in suspension and then get it to a place where you can deal with it. So if you put in a couple of PH's and then through in a bunch of LR your going to get a lot of dead spots between the rock structures or any structural build out in the rock work. Its much better to have multiple outputs so that you have more coverage and thus reduce the amount of areas where your going to get build up. On the sea swirls they do provide some nice random back and forth flow, but most folks put them up front blowing back at the rock, this is nice for the fish but really does the opposite of what you want for keeping the tank clean.

Anyway I would suggest keeping in mind all the things you need to accomplish in regards to keeping the tank clean, rather then what is easier right now. Dealing with build ups of waste and detritus in areas you can really get to will reduce the lifespan of the tank over all or create nutrient problems down the road.

Mike

 

[mcoomer]

One other important bit of advice I forgot. Quit talking to Krish! Eventually you'll either find yourself paying for drinks that you didn't order or getting bailed out of jail and not remembering a damn thing about the night before. You've been warned.

 

[J-dog]

Thanks for the input guys. I was planning on using the Bean Animal system, but I don't know what a coast to coast overflow is.

And as for flow, if I shouldn't use my return pump for flow, what's the best way to get the most water movement?

And what size return pump should I get for my system?

 

[TJL]

The Coast-to-Coast overflow sytem is basically a 4"x4" +- overflow box along entire back top edge to collect full surface width. They can be interior or exterior built as well. Mike said not count on your return pump for overall flow but it is a part, for me in my 125g with two corner overflows (60x24x20) I'm using four Evo 1400gph = 5600gph and my Panworld return pump pushing about 1050+- gph after head loss with 850 going through a 3/4" SeaSwirl and balance through 1/2 LocLine nozzle (that I can aim anywhere needed). I run my flow in a counter-clockwise gyre having (2) PH's in back right pushing to the left along back wall and (2) PH's in back left aiming front center of glass. the bottom of Right pair points slightly up and the top of left pair points slightly down, this seems to keep detritus suspended until emptying into one of either overflows. The SeaSwirl provides the random flows to not have any stagnant areas. You could run a gyre somewhat effectively with a C-to-C as long as at least one PH was pushing water up towards it.

Cheers, Todd

 

[J-dog]

When u talk about PH's (power heads), do u mean return nozzles coming off the return pump?

 

[TJL]

When u talk about PH's (power heads), do u mean return nozzles coming off the return pump?

No, Powerheads ie Koralia, Tunze, Vortech etc... my return through SeaSwirl is Y'd off for better spread.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Krish]

Sorry dude I'm just getting back here. Still not to my pc. Once I get these little monkeys to sleep, I'll post some pictures for you to get the wheels turning. Give me about 30 mins.


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[Krish]

K...Here are a few pics to get things going.

This is an external coast to coast overflow I had on my 38 gal. External because the overflow box sat on the outside of the tank rather than on the inside which would take up valuable swimming space. Basically, you have slots to drain water back into the overflow expanding the whole length of the tank.



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If you look closely you can see the slots




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As Mojo mentioned, in order for a coast to coast overflow (or any overflow to be effective) your flow has to be setup in a way that it end up redirecting water back into it so that the water can then pass down it into your sump where it can be filtered/processed before heading back to the tank. This tank had a basic sump return up top for surface aggitation which also directed flow towards the overflow as it skimmd the surface and then I had 6 holes drilled into the tank for my closed loop. 2 suctions and 4 outputs.

Here is all of the plumbing for the two closed loop pumps on the back of the tank



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An an idea of the flow coming out of the outputs. What you see up top, I had the same thing down low




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The other option which was mentioned was powerheads. Here is my 75 gal I had with two powerheads (one Tunze on either side of the tank which people who came to my house thought they were underwater camera's LOL ) and then a shot of the sea swirl up top. If you look to the top left of the tank, you will see my single small overflow that sat in the tank. Any water that made it to the sump, had to get there via that little overflow which doesn't have much surface area like the coast to coast had. Therefore, this overflow was only rated at about 600-800 gph of flow (can't remember exactly. Been too long LOL)




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So there are a few pics for starters. I will sketch something real quick for you to show you how the overflow works in relation to what Mojo was trying to explain. Give me a sec to draw it up.

 

[Krish]

Here is what Mojo was getting at. This is a side shot of a tank. The idea apart from having full coverage in your tank to avoid any deadspots is you want the water to be directed back towards the overflow. By doing this, any waste/detritus etc floating in the water column will be forced in the direction of the overflow where it can make it's way to the sump to be processed. If your flow isn't setup properly to do this then a lot of the waste will just float around in the tank never making it to the sump and therefore never be filtered/processed. Well, that's basically the idea.




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[J-dog]

Thanks for the pics Krish. So besides using powerheads, the only other way to get good flow is to use a closed loop that's setup on another pump? I don't want to use powerheads, other than the MP40's.....so is a closed loop system my only option?

 

[Krish]

Thanks for the pics Krish. So besides using powerheads, the only other way to get good flow is to use a closed loop that's setup on another pump? I don't want to use powerheads, other than the MP40's.....so is a closed loop system my only option?

Yea, it's either through the use of powerheads or a closed loop. Some people try to use their sump return as a source of flow for the tank which it does provide some, but not typically a whole lot and shouldn't be a primary source where you will base the foundation of your flow from. So I guess you will have to toss around the idea of using powerheads or a closed loop or a combination of the two.


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[J-dog]

How exactly does a closed loop work?

 

[Krish]

Basically you are sucking water directly out of the tank and pushing it right back in so essentially recirculating water, but not in the same fashion as a sump return works that is dependent on the overflow. So on that 38 gal, I drilled two holes in the tank that were suctions that the plumbing went from that bulkhead directly into the suction of the pumps and then the other holes were plumbed into the output of the pump where water was pushed back in. Give me a sec and I'll jump on the computer real quick to explain it a bit better with pictures.


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[Krish]

K...Here's the tank just built and drilled. Originally I had 6 holes (2 suctions going to one pump and 4 outputs from that single pump). However it wasn't enough flow so I chopped it up a bit and added in another pump and used one suction per pump and two outputs per pump, but anyways....


This first shot shows holes drilled in tank. The two top holes and the two bottom holes are the outputs. The middle two are the suctions.




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Next, you need to put something in the holes to seal them and use lockline. The red arrow points to the bulkheads. Once installed in the holes, no water will leak. The green arrow points to the strainer I threaded into the suction for the closed loop so that no fish or whatever gets sucked into the pump. The other black things you see are the lockline fittings, nozzles and adaptors I used to make up my output nozzles that also thread into those bulkheads.




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This was my first attempt at the closed loop.


Here you can see the pump sitting on the back of the tank. Some people place them under their stand, but the closer the better for me as there is less head loss. The red arrow shows the suction from the tank as well as the suction for the pump. The green arrow shows the output from the pump and the outputs to the tank. The single line you see coming from the overflow is my drain to the sump.





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So as you can see it is a closed system. Once the plumbing is primed, you can turn off that pump and restart it as many times as you want and will just resume pumping because it is a closed system.


This shot shows how I added in another pump because I wanted more flow. Could have been a lot neater, but I was rushing and just wanted to reuse whatever I could to get the tank back up and running. Red arrow shows suction for each pump. Pink shows output for each pump. Yellow is my sump return line, green are the true union ball valves that allows me to block off the water to the pumps and disconnect the pumps to clean without draining the tank and the white is my sump drain.





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This is a side shot showing the lockline coming out of the outputs as well as the suctions for the closed loops. This shot was taken before I added the y adaptors to turn each output into 2 seperate outputs like I posted in my last set of photos. With lockline, you can fine tune the direction of your flow by simply adjusting it.




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And lastly a shot showing the tank from the front. You can see my sump return at the top creating the surface aggitation and directing the flow back to the overflow as well as what the lockline looks in the tank. Not as bulky as powerheads can get.






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[Krish]

Oh and my sump while I'm at it below. Very small, two chamber sump, but did everything I needed it to do. Skimmer, phosban reactor, a bag of carbon and a sump return that was plumbed through a chiller.



One thing on the closed loop, you don't have to drill the tank to make your outputs. You can have them come over the top of the tank. The advantage to drilling as you can see is you can place your outputs as low as you want and do whatever you want with it.




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