Need help with a remote fuge design

[class clown]

Hi gang,

I'd like to add a refugium to my setup and need your advice & ideas.

My main goal for this refugium is to allow a place for critters, pods and all of the beneficial bacteria & nutrients to grow and of course produce natural food for fishes and filter feeders in the display

Excess nutrients doesn't seem to be a problem for me with this new tank nor do nitrates at the moment. I run a bare bottom in my display tank, so I'm sand/aragoniteless. But, my colors on my corals look a little pale and I think it is because I'm running a pretty hefty skimmer that is sucking all of my nutrients out-- My theory is that I'm a bit too nutrient free.

So, running with this theory, what I'm trying to accomplish is get some good beneficial nutrients back into the system. So please share your ideas on what you would do. I have an 80 gallon bare bones tank that I'll plumb into the last chamber of my sump after the skimmer.

Here are some questions I hope you can help me answer:

• How deep with sand?
• what type of substrate? finer sand? more course aragonite? a mixture?
• I think I will add LR rubble for copepod reproduction. Should I have a seperate chamber where I can stash the rubble or just place it on top of the sand?
• Chaeto seems to be good for pods and other critters so I'd like to try to grow this. What types of lights are best?

Thanks in advance for helping me with the design. Any/all feedback welcome.
Ben

 

[Dirtsquirt]

How much flow is going through your sump right now? I think you may be trying to push too much water, even though your refuge is a 80gal.

-Dan

 

[trido]

You already know all of my ideas. Im tagging along.

 

[class clown]

How much flow is going through your sump right now? I think you may be trying to push too much water, even though your refuge is a 80gal.

-Dan

Hey Dan.. thanks for chiming in. I'm not sure I follow where we are going with this, but I'm curious to explore.. so here are my stats.

Right now, I have a 240g tank hooked up to a 45gallon sump (the tank I didn't add to the illustration above, but the sump it shares is there). My main return is a Iwaki MD40RLT which is a Pressurized pump pushing 750gph.

Now.. Also split off of the sump right now, I also have a 20g breeder (later to be converted to a 40B at the time I add the refgium). 2 MJ1200s from the sump feed the breeder and it overflows back into the sump. Probably about 300gph total given that they have to push the water up a couple feet.

So.. all in all, I have about 1000gph running through the sump. what do you think?

The fuge and frag tank will have about 300gph running through them each once they are setup.

 

[class clown]

You already know all of my ideas. Im tagging along.

Come on Duane -don't be shy.. You know I've searched and searched for hours on this stuff for ideas and still have questions.

Post a link to the light bulbs/fixtures you'd use. And tell me what you think about the Substrate..

 

[class clown]

Just dawned on me I left the display out of the first drawing...

 

[sgwill122]

Ben I am hoping you figure this one out, as you know I am plagued with the lighter colors as well. I have started feeding heavier and my frogspawn has started getting deeper colors so you are probably right thinking you need more nutrients. I don't think our 10K lighting helps with the lighter colors. The one suggestion I have for lighting your chaeto is the 23W CF flood lights with internal reflectors you get at lowes or home depot. My chaeto has done great under this lighting, it is cheap and energy efficient. My chaeto growth slows way down when I reduce feeding, but when I feed heavy I see hair algae start showing up, not sure you can get chaeto to grow well without getting some nuisance algae as well???

 

[logiktest]

Just thinking about your frag tank thread... Have you thought about using a tee with two valves in front of the frag tank in order to isolate the frag tank if you have to for some reason? What are the dimensions of the 80gal.? How many fish do you have now(bio load)?

Some opinions:

How deep with sand?

Deep. You have no sand in your display or frag tank.

what type of substrate? finer sand? more course aragonite? a mixture?

Finer

I think I will add LR rubble for copepod reproduction. Should I have a seperate chamber where I can stash the rubble or just place it on top of the sand?

A separate chamber. This would leave top layer of the sand bed easy to see/clean

Chaeto seems to be good for pods and other critters so I'd like to try to grow this. What types of lights are best?

any thing low wattage, low $, lite the same time as as the frag tank/opposite the display to help PH.

 

[trido]

All right then. The illustration in post six is exactly how I plan to set up my future 180. I hope to have a larger sump but will only have a 65G fuge.
In the mean time, on the 120, I have a 23w 6500K CF flood over my 30G fuge with cheato and a 6" DSB. The fuge is 24" deep with very low flow on the bottom. I would guess this tank only gets 700GPH most of which is on top. I have wild red valonia some unusual hair algea and cheato. The cheato barely grows. It has hardly doubled in size in a year and a half.
On my other system, I have a 30G sump/fuge with a 13w 6500K CF flood. IN this fuge I have an old 300GPH zoo med powerhead along with a mag 3 return pump. IMO this has 3X the flow as the larger system This little 7G fuge grows cheato like a weed and I know its a much cleaner more sterile sytem. I beleive this is due to flow
On that note, My corals have much less color in this system. I barely feed it due to an extremely light bioload. However, this could be bulb related. Each system has a different brand of 10Ks.

Over your 80G fuge I would recommend this fixture with some 5000K NO T-8s. Or three floods with the 23W 6500K bulbs. I would also run a 4-6" DSB with sugar sized aragonite and keep it healthy with an apropriate cleaner crew. I wouldn't put any LR rubble or LR in it. The cheato will hold plenty of pods, bristle worms, brittle stars etc. I think for good cheato growth you will need additional flow. Possibly a hydor 4. I would also run a system heater in this tank near the intake. I can tell a significant difference in temp from the 30G sump (where the heater are) 65G display to 40G frag tank on my garage system in the winter and I keep this room at 65F. Thats it for now. Off to work.

 

[class clown]

Ben I am hoping you figure this one out, as you know I am plagued with the lighter colors as well. I have started feeding heavier and my frogspawn has started getting deeper colors so you are probably right thinking you need more nutrients. I don't think our 10K lighting helps with the lighter colors. The one suggestion I have for lighting your chaeto is the 23W CF flood lights with internal reflectors you get at lowes or home depot. My chaeto has done great under this lighting, it is cheap and energy efficient. My chaeto growth slows way down when I reduce feeding, but when I feed heavy I see hair algae start showing up, not sure you can get chaeto to grow well without getting some nuisance algae as well???

Thanks Steve - FWIW, I have been feeding more heavily a combination of a lot of things and my colors have started to intensify a bit in the last 3 weeks - especially the blue's and puples. I've been trying it all - coral frenzy, rods reef, golden pearls, cyclopeeze, frozen rotifers, baby brine -all that good stuff. We'll figure it out. Yeah.. so my theory is that my invoronment may just be a little too sterile at the moment and I'd like to get some of those good natural food sources flowing for the corals (and of course fish too).

What's the CF stand for in "23W CF flood lights"? and... does it matter what kelvin rating I get?

 

[class clown]

Just thinking about your frag tank thread... Have you thought about using a tee with two valves in front of the frag tank in order to isolate the frag tank if you have to for some reason? What are the dimensions of the 80gal.? How many fish do you have now(bio load)?
Some opinions:
Deep. You have no sand in your display or frag tank.
Finer
A separate chamber. This would leave top layer of the sand bed easy to see/clean
any thing low wattage, low $, lite the same time as as the frag tank/opposite the display to help PH.

Ligik - got some answers for ya.

I think being able to isolate the frag & fuge are great ideas - I ordered up some Tee's and ball valves yesterday - good suggestion.

I just went out and measured what I thought was an 80 gallon. it's 48" by 13" by 18". I didn't think to ask for the dimensions when I bought it. Looks like the guy told me it was an 80 and it's actually a 55g. Dohh - good thing I didn't pay much for it!

As for bioload. Right now, I have..
2 squareside anthias - large
blue tang - medium
purple tang-large
2 GSMs - 1 large, 1 medium
2 oscellarus clowns -small
purple psuedo -medium
fire fish-small
hawk fish-small
dragon pipefish - medium
mandarin goby -medium
cherub angel- medium

So.. some additional questions for you... How deep is deep? 5-6". Why finer substrate vs. course? what are the advantages?

 

[class clown]

All right then. The illustration in post six is exactly how I plan to set up my future 180. I hope to have a larger sump but will only have a 65G fuge.
In the mean time, on the 120, I have a 23w 6500K CF flood over my 30G fuge with cheato and a 6" DSB. The fuge is 24" deep with very low flow on the bottom. I would guess this tank only gets 700GPH most of which is on top. I have wild red valonia some unusual hair algea and cheato. The cheato barely grows. It has hardly doubled in size in a year and a half.
On my other system, I have a 30G sump/fuge with a 13w 6500K CF flood. IN this fuge I have an old 300GPH zoo med powerhead along with a mag 3 return pump. IMO this has 3X the flow as the larger system This little 7G fuge grows cheato like a weed and I know its a much cleaner more sterile sytem. I beleive this is due to flow
On that note, My corals have much less color in this system. I barely feed it due to an extremely light bioload. However, this could be bulb related. Each system has a different brand of 10Ks.

Over your 80G fuge I would recommend this fixture with some 5000K NO T-8s. Or three floods with the 23W 6500K bulbs. I would also run a 4-6" DSB with sugar sized aragonite and keep it healthy with an apropriate cleaner crew. I wouldn't put any LR rubble or LR in it. The cheato will hold plenty of pods, bristle worms, brittle stars etc. I think for good cheato growth you will need additional flow. Possibly a hydor 4. I would also run a system heater in this tank near the intake. I can tell a significant difference in temp from the 30G sump (where the heater are) 65G display to 40G frag tank on my garage system in the winter and I keep this room at 65F. Thats it for now. Off to work.

Duane - good tip on the heater - didn't even cross my mind, but makes perfect sense.

thanks for the links on the shop light. 3 more questions for you.

So same question as I asked logik --why finer sand vs. larger substrate?

Why no LR rubble? I've heard this is an ideal breeding ground for pods & such. and I could grow some sponges on it.

And.. for a cleaner crew, what would be your recomendation for a cleaner crew. nesarrius snails, regular snails, blue legged hermits, and maybe a couple sand sifting stars?

 

[Reeferdude]

What ever design you choose I think the fuge should be last in line. That way the pods and or Mysis can go directly into the display tank decreasing mortality by the return pumps.

 

[class clown]

What ever design you choose I think the fuge should be last in line. That way the pods and or Mysis can go directly into the display tank decreasing mortality by the return pumps.

That would be ideal, but given the top of my display is a little over 7ft in the air in my garage, it makes it pretty difficult to accomplish this. So, It'll dump into the last chamber of the sump and then get sucked up through the return. I wish I had an option to elevate the refugium, but it's just not feasible for me.

 

[Snowboarda42]

When I come drop your frags off next friday (23rd), I'll give you some ideas; provided there's beer in the fridge

 

[logiktest]

I would say about 6" or more is good. One reason I would use the finer substrate is that it will lessen the amount of detritus that can get stuck in it. I see nothing wrong with having a separate chamber for the rock, and If your thinking about having sponges on it or a cryptic zone, I think that is cool. As for the cleaning crew, I would use snails.

 

[Scooterman]

Will you have some sort of dividers in the refuge? A 6"DSB would benefit you some as to growing sb critters & things you can't keep above, also engineer gobies could stir it up really well & are really cool to look at, I miss mine but they are little pigs so they will eat some of your critters so that may be counter productive. I like CF (compact Fluorescents) or to me If I could &'d light it with some T5's or something of the sorts, I'd chamber it off some so you can grow chaeto or something similar one chamber with some LR rubble. I'd light it bright like I mentioned to get high growth, maybe keep some shrimp or fish & things you can't keep anywhere else just some that won't eat up what your trying to culture like pods, so no wrasses, mandarins etc down there. I seem to relate a small greenhouse to a fuge or kitchen garden where you can experiment with out of the ordinary things that may or may not be beneficial. I think 80g to work with, you can get creative with it. As far as layout & design, If you can block it off to isolate when needed, have a place to dump incoming water & not bother anything, sorta baffle it out some will work fine.

 

[class clown]

Colleen is letting me borrow Calfo's book on Reef invertabrates. so far the book has been pretty helpful. If anyone else is thinking about setting a refugium up for their system, I'd recomend getting your hands on a copy.

It seems like the consensus with your recomendation's and his is a smaller sand size is better. If not, I'd need to practice some prety diligent husbandry techniqutes (frequent stirring, grabel siphoning) to prevent detritus buildup if I used courser media.

5-6" also seems like the consensus, so I'll shoot for this as a target.

It has also become apparent that I'll need some good water flow over the top of the sandbed.

I picked up two 5 gallon buckets of old live sand from Jamie (thanks again my man) and I now realze that I'll need to cure it before adding it to the system to avoid foulign the water.

-----
And.. realizing that posts aren't much fun without progress pics, here are a couple of the stand I built this weekend.

 

[jezzeaepi]

Nice work Ben! Can't wait to see this thing hooked up and running.

 

[spongebob lover]

very nice dood