nitrate "terminator" ??

[x947]

i just dug out my old 90 acrylic and have gotten the fever to set her up again. it's been about 13 years since the last time a tore it down and I have my first two questions:

1. i have a wet/dry filter with a sump. not having followed things too closely, what is the current feeling on using the biomedia (bioballs) for a reef tank ?

2. I have a piece of equipment called a nitrate terminator. I don't think I remember ever getting this thing really "fine tuned" so I can't remember how effective it was (but i can remember paying a pretty penny for it). it's basically a beautiful and well crafted acrylic box that contains 3 vertical plastic eggcates. a powerhead sits in the bottom and supplies circulation to the 3-5 gallons of water it contains. a sprinkler system controller is used to control another powerhead that flushes the box into your sump and refills the terminator. after filling the box the controller turns on a dosing pump that doses the water with methanol (takes out all of the oxygen in the terminator water ??). supposedly the eggcrate grows bacteria in the oxygenless water that takes nitrates in the water to zero. this thing has some difficult to understand instructions and a labor intensive "cycling" period until the bacteria are established and determining the timeframes for methanol eliminationfrom the water.

does this kind of filtration raise red flags in anybodies minds out there ? does it make sense ?

thanks for your help ! looking forward to using the excellent information found here so far !

Mike

 

[Scooterman]

Hello, welcome to RF!
Time to start reading.
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=124

I'd go through this forum then a few more to get an idea of what we do these days. I'd say before you start buying equipment & stuff, learn what is going on these days & see how much things have changed, we can help with your questions & hopefully point you in the right direction.
For starters we use what is basically called the Berlin method.
A tank with 1 or 2 pounds of Live Rock per gallon, a sump that contains an highly efficient Skimmer, heater, etc. maybe a refugium & then maybe a phosphate reactor with absorbing media & carbon.
We use High flow rates that produce random flow throughout the entire tank, & high powered lighting as in Metal Halides or T5's

This is for the basic fish only or reef type tanks, it takes some reading on all of this to get a better understanding as to why we do all this, so that would be the best start IMO.

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

What you have will work fine. A change has been made from bio-balls to other items for biological filtering, like a porous medium which harbors anaerobic bacteria in the pores to help denitrify the water. Ceramic media and pieces of live rock has been used successfully.

Your Nitrate Terminator --- it is the same principle used today with deep sand beds --- the use of Vinegar and Vodka to feed the bacteria just like your use of Methanol.

Most Reef tanks rely heavily on Live Rock for most if not all of the tank filtration. A Wet/Dry filter can be used successfully, and IMHO is one of the best biological filters ever made.


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Definition of Bored : "To be without options or variables!"

"OFM"
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Enjoy!

OFM

 

[x947]

OFM -

thanks for your kind and informative reply !

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello x947;

You are very welcome.

OFM

 

[Scooterman]

Hello;

What you have will work fine. A change has been made from bio-balls to other items for biological filtering, like a porous medium which harbors anaerobic bacteria in the pores to help denitrify the water. Ceramic media and pieces of live rock has been used successfully.

Your Nitrate Terminator --- it is the same principle used today with deep sand beds --- the use of Vinegar and Vodka to feed the bacteria just like your use of Methanol.

Most Reef tanks rely heavily on Live Rock for most if not all of the tank filtration. A Wet/Dry filter can be used successfully, and IMHO is one of the best biological filters ever made.

We all have Opinions, be careful to explain why you think this as there are requirements to make these work successfully.
That is why i suggest to get reading first, for a Long term success & a better chance of saving losses both live stock & money

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

Hello Scooterman, I think you did a good job covering many topics. I don't feel I should repeat it.

It is his previous tank (experience) and I see no problems with his biological filtration. I think I helped in answering his questions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of Bored : "To be without options or variables!"

"OFM"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enjoy!

OFM

 

[dmo]

i just dug out my old 90 acrylic and have gotten the fever to set her up again. it's been about 13 years since the last time a tore it down and I have my first two questions:

1. i have a wet/dry filter with a sump. not having followed things too closely, what is the current feeling on using the biomedia (bioballs) for a reef tank ?

Many people still use bioballs, though its generally accepted that more natural filtration with live rock is more desirable.

2. I have a piece of equipment called a nitrate terminator. I don't think I remember ever getting this thing really "fine tuned" so I can't remember how effective it was (but i can remember paying a pretty penny for it). it's basically a beautiful and well crafted acrylic box that contains 3 vertical plastic eggcates. a powerhead sits in the bottom and supplies circulation to the 3-5 gallons of water it contains. a sprinkler system controller is used to control another powerhead that flushes the box into your sump and refills the terminator. after filling the box the controller turns on a dosing pump that doses the water with methanol (takes out all of the oxygen in the terminator water ??). supposedly the eggcrate grows bacteria in the oxygenless water that takes nitrates in the water to zero. this thing has some difficult to understand instructions and a labor intensive "cycling" period until the bacteria are established and determining the timeframes for methanol eliminationfrom the water.

I've never heard of this, but it seems similar to other nitrate reactors available (coil, sulphur, etc)

Like stated above, I think its currently more accepted to use a more natural approach to nitrate reduction. In addition to live rock, a deep sand bed (DSB) or an in-sump or separate refugium work very well and have other useful functions as well.

does this kind of filtration raise red flags in anybodies minds out there ? does it make sense ?

thanks for your help ! looking forward to using the excellent information found here so far !

Mike

Your setup doesn't raise any red flags for me, if it works, it works!

If you had any issues that you recall when the tank was running 13 years ago, now would be a great time to review and make changes to improve you system.

 

[Sherman]

I'm going to take the opposite stance here. I would label your bioballs as completely inappropriate for a reef tank, and I'm sure your searching through forums will state the same. Live rock now takes the place of bioballs. Every instance I've ever read of anyone using bioballs in a reef tank has led to severe nitrate buildup. My stance is "You should not use the bioballs, that's what the live rock is for." In addition, your nitrate terminator has also been replaced with either a deep sand bed or, again, the live rock. It sounds like an equipment nightmare, to be honest.

I certainly don't mean to scare you off. A LOT has changed in just the 4 years I've been maintaining my aquarium. Some of the basic concepts have been around a while, though. As Scooterman stated above: Lots of flow (20-30x your tank volume in gallons per hour. Your cause would mean about 2000-3000gph total as a target), lots of live rock, and a good protein skimmer are the foundation elements of today's modern reef. You'll find undergravel plenums, airstone skimmers, hang-on-back filtration, bioballs, and the like have all gone by the wayside.

 

[returnofsid]

I tend to agree that bioballs quickly become nitrate factories. Most current reef systems are completely filtered by an adequate quantity of quality live rock, live sand and protein skimming. There's TONS of information available here on RF. Oh and welcome back to this addictive hobby and welcome to Reef Frontiers!!

 

[x947]

thanks to all for the replies and opinions.

Sherman, to be honest, it doesn't sound like the basics of this hobby have changed for some time. The basic principles of food, lighting, and filtration are constant. How the hobby deals with these issues is constanlty changing. Biolode creates ammonia, biological filtration reduces ammonia with nitrite as a byproduct, and
biological filtration reduces nitrite with nitrate as a byproduct. Nitrate reduction is most simply dealt with through waterchages to reduce these levels. I bought this terminator with the goal of using mechanical filtration as a way of processing nitrate to zero (much like the concept of the dsb's, not just managing an acceptable level of them through dilution. My understanding of this equipment at the time was that the anaerobic colony grown would expand to more than compensate for the increased nitrates produce from the "efficiencies" of the nitrate facory. I guess we'll see . . .

But use of live rock, the "Berlin" method, high flow rates, etc. aren't new concepts. I guess my question was intended to see if there was any "new" research that would prohibit the use of these items in a system without considering the impact of these items in your system.

Next, on to closed loop systems . . .

Mike

 

[Scooterman]

What was kept in a marine tank 13 years ago & what we keep alive & thriving these days has changed, it has become much easier to keep the most difficult species of corals & fish compared to back then & really way longer than that, 13 years isn't that far off & the Berlin method was just starting out, 20 years ago then we're talking way different subject. One thing I could say, the higher end test kits will probably prove your terminator won't bring them down as low as you may think, I'd start there & just see how well it does work, I'm sure you will do well with most common fish & corals.