Please Critique my Sump Design!

[jrgilles]

Hello all, I'm pretty new to this forum and just starting up a saltwater aquarium after a long break. I've been doing a lot of reading online (thanks to many of you for some very helpful links!), and I think I have finalized my sump tank design. I wanted to post it here for you guys to see incase you guys have any suggestions on things to change.

I'm a bit of a noob with this sump design stuff...

What I have:
50 gallon breeder tank (about the same size as a 40 breeder but taller)
A bunch of free plexiglas baffles (max height is 14.5 inches), 1/4" thick.

Here's the image, if I can embed this properly.... This is fully drawn to scale on graph paper, but the graph lines didn't scan in. Plumbing is just approximated for now:

The basic flow is as follows, overflow from the tank flows down, part splits off to fill the refugium. By this junction there are valves for the refugium flow and the sump flow.

Refugium overflows through a couple of baffles (1/2" spacing) into the return tank. The first refugium baffle will have some slots cut into it to block snails from leaving the fuge.

The main flow will go into the intake tank and go over live rock, that is held in place by a short baffle. The skimmer is in here above the short baffle. There is a bubble wall first with a 3.5 inch gap at the base. I will put 2 media bags between this baffle and the small liverock intake baffle containing activated carbon and phosphorus removing media. The water will then flow through this 3.5" gap (put a sponge here for more air bubble trapping?) and through a series of 3 baffles to the return tank. (Baffles are HIGH (With large bottom opening) then LOW (12") then HIGH (1" bottom opening) then another LOW (12") then to the return tank. I'm hoping this baffle design will be able to eliminate a lot of the bubbles. In the return tank I will have an egg crate scaffold with live rock on it.

From the return tank, I have a pump (not yet decided on) that will return the water to the tank. Above the sump I will have a splitter that will allow me to cycle the water back to the return tank (so I have the ability to slow down the return flow without putting stress on the return pump.) and another valve leading to a drain line (that I can turn on to do water changes utilizing the return pump flow).

Any suggestions or comments would be much appreciated. I plan on putting it together with Weldon 40, which I have read will do a decent job of welding plexiglas to glas. And then maybe a coat of silicon over that.

Thanks!

Oh, I'm also assembling a stand (almost done) without any center supports (so open back and front, with a small shelf extending out through the back.) Frame is held solid by gusset plates instead of the normal center vertical support. Very solid. I'm taking pictures and will post a DIY onto the forum once I'm done with it.

rob

 

[BCT182]

The carbon and phosban area I would scratch. Carbon likes water passed through it. You won't get as effective use of carbon if its in a bag at the bottom if the sump. The phos sponges like water slowly passed through something like a reactor. I would personally buy two carbon reactors and fill one with carbon, the other with your prefered type of media. This will also free space in the sump. Believe me, having the last chamber in a sump (the one closest to the pump) is a total nightmare if the chamber is small. You end up needing to top off twice a day if you have halides.

Finally, trying to encorporate the refugium in the sump is kinda a PITA too. Do you have any additional space?

 

[jrgilles]

I'm kind of broke so trying to do this cheap (I have a 50 gallon tank and a bunch of plexiglass baffles from work) so I was putting the carbon and phosban bags in there as a hold over until I get some cash to add reactors. I can scrap those bags and just wait until I can buy some reactors. There should be room in the fill section for the reactors. Would you then remove the plexiglas baffle that holds the live rock under the intake pipe? I was thinking it was a good idea to contain the rock there. I could also do it by putting in a 6" PVC pipe with holes in it or something like that, or scrap it altogether.

Do you think the return chamber is too small? Let me calculate gallons....

Refugium is about 10 gallons
Fill tank is about 8.5 gallons
Return tank is about 10.5 gallons

The size of this tank was so much larger compared to other prefab sumps I saw that I wasn't worried too much about it being too small, maybe I need to reconsider that...

I was adding the refugium into the sump just because the sump tank is huge, and it would cost me nothing but glue to do it, so I could get a refugium for free. Adding in a separate refugium would require another tank and another overflow box. It seemed to me there was enough space in this 50 gallon sump to incorperate it. What are complications of doing the refugium this way? I will still have total control over the flow through the refugium since it has its own fill pipe and valve to regulate it.

As far as the return tank size (currently 10.5 gallons when full to the top of the 12" baffle) I could get a little extra size by shrinking the refugium or by shrinking the fill tank, although I can only get another inch and a half max from the fill tank without taking the protein skimmer to the outside of the tank (which I guess is an option.) Seemed like a good idea (and space efficient) to keep the protein skimmer inside the tank. I allowed the extra size incase I upgrade my protein skimmer some day or put this on a bigger tank and need a bigger skimmer (currently this is going onto a 75 gallon aquarium).

I kind of like the idea of a refugium in the sump since it is free and the tank is big, unless there are some complications I'm not aware of.

What do you think of the baffle spacing? I have 1" spacing from the fill tank to the return tank and 1/2 inch spacing from the refugium (in hopes of stopping snails/etc from getting out. Was also going to have 1-1.5" slots at the top of the baffle to make a wall to help contain things while allowing the water to drain through it.)

Thanks for your advice. As I said, I'm kind of a noob at this.

 

[jrgilles]

I could also raise the lower baffles up an inch or so between the fill tank and the return tank. This would get it even with the refugium baffles, but would allow a bit more space. Maybe I could incorperate all of these... Raise the baffles an inch, shrink the refugium 1.5" and steal another .5" from the fill tank. That would raise the return tank volume to 13.5 gallons if filled to the top of the now 13" baffle. Think that is good, or should it be even bigger?

 

[cali_reef]

How big of a display tank is this sump for?

Depending on the return pump size and flow thru of the skimmer, you might not need that many baffles at the skimmer chamber. Ditch the sponge for sure.

What are you going to use to trap detritus as it come down the drain?

 

[jrgilles]

How big of a display tank is this sump for?

Depending on the return pump size and flow thru of the skimmer, you might not need that many baffles at the skimmer chamber. Ditch the sponge for sure.



What are you going to use to trap detritus as it come down the drain?

Its going to be on a 75 gallon tank.

Debated the 4th baffle, I have free plexiglass though, so I added the first baffle from the intake to stop more bubbles. Think its not necessary? Was assuming the size of the sump was already overkill for 75, so I could spare the real estate. Although now I'm wondering if the return tank needs to be larger...

I currently have nothing to trap detritus. Guess I need that. >.< Is the best way just to put a bag over the intake? Should I have liverock in this chamber? Or is that not needed and I should just ditch it?

Will ditch the sponge. Read online they would stop more bubbles, but doesn't really seem like a good idea.

Thanks for your input guys, I'm excited on getting this all put together. Getting close

rob

 

[beoks]

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

this is basically what your building i ran the same style for a long time and had no problems with it id make the skimmer section just large enough for the skimmer and nothing else the return is up to you the smaller you make it the more often you have to top off the larger will last longer but you will lose area in your fudge i used cds as spacers between my baffles i just stacked 3 together and it worked well id also add filter socks too i like them i know lots of people dont though

melevs is also a great place to look at other ideas for sumps some good reads

 

[jrgilles]

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

this is basically what your building i ran the same style for a long time and had no problems with it id make the skimmer section just large enough for the skimmer and nothing else the return is up to you the smaller you make it the more often you have to top off the larger will last longer but you will lose area in your fudge i used cds as spacers between my baffles i just stacked 3 together and it worked well id also add filter socks too i like them i know lots of people dont though

Yea, I got a lot of into off melevsreef. Only difference I added to that was a bubble wall and another short baffle to the reef and another bubble wall closest to the protein skimmer. Think thats unnecessary? I figured the baffle would quiet the reef as it drained and the extra near the skimmer would add that much more bubble protection. Did you like this melevsreef design?

rob

 

[beoks]

oh one more point i feel worth mentioning just make sure you leave enough room in the sump so when the power goes out your sump will not overflow i dont think you will have that problem since its a large sump for a 75 but learned that one the hard way

 

[trido]

If it were mine, I would make two chambers. One for the skimmer/overflow and one for the return pump/heaters. a 36" tank is just too small to make into three chambers with all of that going on. One foot for each, minus baffles doesnt give much wiggle room.

 

[jrgilles]

OK, I think I'm sold. I will change it to 2 chambers, the intake and a huge return tank, leaving the intake baffles the same.

I'm building the stand now, so I will just attach a shelf thing to the side of it and buy a 10 gallon tank and use that as a refugium. I can then just divert part of the flow from the main tank overflow box to it, and have it then drain through a drilled hole back into the sump, and it will all be gravity fed.

That will let me get a ton more space in the return tank, and will probably look nicer, bringing the refugium out where it can be seen.

Thanks for the advice, I think it will make everything a lot simpler having a huge return tank.

rob

 

[jrgilles]

What do you guys think of a 5 gallon size for the refugium? Would fit nicely against the short side of the main tank. Is it too small?

I would like to put a bit of live rock in it, and maybe a mandrin fish and some macro algae.

Could also go with a 10 gallon, but it won't fit as nicely next to the tank.

rob

 

[beoks]

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/c/split_sump.html

 

[Chichas01]

Beoks has a good idea for you. Split them up if you can. I did this as well and it worked out really nicely. Also, are you thinking of putting a Mandarin in your fuge? Bad idea. It defeats the purpose of a refugium. It's supposed to be a 'refuge' from any predators. So no fish or anything else that eats anything other than detritus or film algae.

 

[jrgilles]

Beoks has a good idea for you. Split them up if you can. I did this as well and it worked out really nicely. Also, are you thinking of putting a Mandarin in your fuge? Bad idea. It defeats the purpose of a refugium. It's supposed to be a 'refuge' from any predators. So no fish or anything else that eats anything other than detritus or film algae.

OK, so I think my current plan includes taking the refugium out of the sump and having a large return tank (just losing the refugium baffles, leaving the other baffles in place) and I am going to build a second small stand for a 20 gallon (tall tank I think) and I'm going to set that up next to my main tank for the refugium. So I'll have a 75 gallon tank, a 20 gallon fuge and a 50 long sump tank, probably holding somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 gallons so there is some room for overflow.

Bolting the corners of my stand together now. Soon will be time for staining and sealing it.

rob

 

[jrgilles]

Hey guys, wonder if I could pick your collective brain again....

Moving onto my return pump now. I've narrowed it down to a couple of choices, but wanted to see if you had any advice, or brands you like.

I have an overflow box with a 1.5" bulkhead, which should deliver about 800 GPH from tests I've found online. I was also thinking about adding a second bulkhead to it for a slow flow to an external 20 gallon refugium (or I might just tap off the plumbing line.)

The eheim return pump looks pretty nice. Its only going to give me about 600 GPH though at 5' head pressure, which I'm thinking might be a bit low. There are some others that look good that will get me up to around 900-1000 GPH at head pressure.

Here are the ones I've found that look good. If you have any recommendations, I'd love to hear em. Running external would be nice, but I am in seattle, so heat shouldn't be too much of an issue, except for maybe 3 or 4 days in the summer. Oh, main tank is 75 gallons, sump is 50 (but will be more like 30 with extra space) and fuge is going to be a 20 gallon tank.

danner mag drive supreme 12 (1200 GPH 110 W)
http://www.marinedepot.com/Danner_M...ter_Pumps-Danner_Mfg.-DN1111-FIWPSBUF-vi.html

Eheim 1262 (900 gph, 80 W)
http://www.marinedepot.com/Eheim_Un...ble_Water_Pumps-Eheim-EH1046-FIWPSBUF-vi.html

Mag Drive 1200 (no wattage listed, maybe thats a bad sign)
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/206566/product.web

pan world 50xp-x (90 W 1100 gph)
http://www.marinedepot.com/Pan_Worl...umps-Pan_World-JW1123-FIWPEPOT-JW1135-vi.html

 

[fatboyt123]

Eheim is you best bet. The other seem to big to me. I am running a mag 12 on my 155 with 55 gallon sump with about 5 from pump to the top of the tank.

 

[jrgilles]

Eheim is you best bet. The other seem to big to me. I am running a mag 12 on my 155 with 55 gallon sump with about 5 from pump to the top of the tank.

OK, cool. That pump looked pretty quality as far as loudness, energy efficiency and termperature.

I was reading online that people were cycling water up to 30-40X per hour on some reef systems. Maybe thats just nano.

If I hold 700 GHP at head pressure with that eheim, it will be cycling me maybe 7X per hour (with the volume of the fuge and sump taken into account)

 

[fatboyt123]

30-40x IN TANK. Right now we are just talking about water flowing through the sump to the main tank. Powerheads take care of the flow inside the tank.

 

[jrgilles]

30-40x IN TANK. Right now we are just talking about water flowing through the sump to the main tank. Powerheads take care of the flow inside the tank.

Ah, ok. That makes a lot more sense. Seemed insane.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm a bit of a noob with all this. Kind of figuring this all out as I build this beast.

I'll go with the eheim then. Read some pretty good reviews on it. And the 80 W is pretty sexy.