Problem with Cardinal Fish

[Zenoah1439]

I've been on travel for the past week, and while talking with my wife this afternoon she told me that our Cardinal fish had died. I got a description of what he looked like and it sounded pretty odd to me. Thought I'd post it up to see if anyone has any suggestions on what may have happened.

Apparently, the Cardinal looked as though he'd broken its back; aka it didn't seem to have control of its rear fin. There was also a noticeable amount of scales missing between his tail and furthest fin back (around the same area where the "break" may have occurred). Also, the side fins (not sure of the technical names, but like the hands to a fish lol) looked really ragged. Apparently in the semi-transparent striped areas of the fish she could see that he was bleeding internally, though the point of bleeding looked to be lower than where the spine should be.

She's done some investigation; the chemicals are all normal and none of the live rock has moved in a way that would have pinned him. Only think she noted was that the Azure Damsel has his upper fin "spiked" which seems pretty unusual for him.

I have the following other inhabitants in a 40g:

1. Coral Beuty
2. Azure Damsel (small blue and yellow fish separated by a diagonal)
3. 2 clowns
4. 1 Fire Shrimp
5. 1 cleaner shrimp

The Cardinal had been in the tank for 4-6 weeks with no previous signs of any distress. Only recent addition to the tank was the cleaner shrimp about 1 week ago. Everything else has either been in the tank since the beginning, or was introduced the same time as the cardinal

From her description, it almost sounded like another of the fish may have attacked him, but i didn't think any of the above were supposed to be very aggressive through discussions with the LFS during the time of purchase. Is this a possibility? What else may have happened?

When i get back to town, I'm hoping to replace him with another unless there's some incompatibility in the above inhabitants. I just want to make sure the next one won't be "eaten" if that's what happened to this one. Just seems odd that he would be attacked 6 weeks after introduction. Any help is appreciated and let me know if you need or would like any additional information.

 

[Krish]

Sorry to hear about your fish :doubt:. I will move your thread to Lee's forum with a re-direct to see if he can shed any light on the subject for you.

 

[leebca]

I'd say it was physical damage from some source -- another fish or accident.

Cardinals are in a group of fishes known to be generally peaceful. They are below 'assertive' on the fish 'attitude' meter. However, the Anemonefishes (a part of the Damsel family) are on the other side of the middle mark, known for their assertive behavior. Their assertive behavior can turn belligerent from many reasons, including but not limited to: a sense that their resources are limited (not enough food; the improper foods; any combo of these two); space (territory); perceived (real or imagined) threat; threat to procreation (if the Anemonefishes are paired or pairing and working towards a nesting area); etc. Add to this list the possibility there is a hitchhiker in the tank that, until now has found enough to eat and, running out of food, has chosen to begin attacking the fish.

Since your report is second hand, there still may be other factors of such a subtle nature that they escaped notice. To be sure there is no 'community problems' requires the hobbyist to sit in front of the tank for hours -- the fish begin to ignore the hobbyist and their 'true nature' unfolds. I sit hours at my computer and my tanks are just behind my monitor and to one side. I see how the truly behave over a period of hours as they have grown accustomed to me just sitting here (they think I don't see -- but god sees everything!).

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Lee,

Thanks for the advice. I finally got back into town, and for good measure i sat in front of my tank for about 3-4 hours watching the fish. I really didn't see anything out of place or unusual in behavior. The only thing i did notice is that my cleaner shrimp, after he's done "riding" my coral beauty for cleaning (which I'm assuming is normal?), started getting bullied by my coral beauty. She kept basically charging him, but i'm not sure why. Is that normal, it doesn't seem like it should be.

Unfortunately, I woke up this morning to flip on the light and noticed something looked out of place. Upon closer inspection, my cleaner shrimp was "cleaning" my now dead clown fish. I didn't notice any signs of distress or bad health in the clown yesterday, and the other one looks fine. I also inspected the dead clown and he doesn't show any noticeable physical damage.

Since my cleaner shrimp is the only new addition to the tank, my gut points to him. But is it possible to have an "aggressive" cleaner shrimp, and if so is a cleaner strong enough to start killing fish? Am i'm going down the wrong road in figuring out whats causing this?

I tested all my chemicals again and found nothing out of the ordinary. I was planning to head to Kevin's shop in Post falls today for some supplies for my RO/DI system and will take a sample of water to see if he can find anything out of the ordinary in the water as a double check.

For now, I don't think I'm going to replace any of the fish since it seems like the same event may continue to occur till i find the culprit.

 

[Zenoah1439]

One other thing, in regards to your hitchhiker comment, I've noticed for a while that when its dark in the house and only the actinic bulbs are on, I can see "tracks" all over the tank. I've never been able to figure out what it is, but it looks like there's "slug" tracks all over the live rock and sand. If i look at the sand against the glass, i can see trails where whatever it is has passed through deep in the sand bed as well. I never thought much of it till you said a hitchhiker might have run low on food and started looking towards the fish.

Do "slug trails" ring a bell about something in the tank that I should be worried about?

 

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the loss.

Sorry, but I don't know a heck of a lot about invertebrates. The 'track' you speak of doesn't ring any kind of bell with me and my knowledge.

What is your cleaner shrimp eating? I mean, what are you feeding it? What we do know about cleaner fishes and cleaner shrimp is that, in captivity, there is nothing to clean off of our captive fishes. Inspection of their digestive track has discovered that they are in fact eating the fish they are supposed to be 'cleaning.' I know this sounds strange, but in fact what the cleaner fish/shrimp is doing is picking off the mucous coating of the fish and if that isn't enough, they try to grab living flesh. A captive fish turning on the cleaner is not that unusual when you think that the cleaner just bit the fish. I have seen fish bite a cleaner fish in half right after one such 'cleaning.'

Although I wrote this post some time ago it applies to cleaner fishes and cleaner shrimp and even very young fishes that act like cleaners (until they grow up and stop the activity). You should give this a read: http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/cleaner-fishes-invertebrates-picky-fishes-55205/ The reason I ask about what you are feeding the shrimp is that they can't just live on picking off of fish, they have to be trained to eat prepared foods and if their diet isn't sufficient and isn't nutritious enough, they will go back to 'eating' fish.

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Lee,

Thank you very much for the post, that was a great read. I think the shrimp may be the, or at least part, of the problem. I haven't been explicitly feeding him anything. I assumed (poorly as it sounds) that he was eating the decaying matter from the tank in the same way my fire shrimp eats. I have noticed that the cleaner shrimp tries to get some of the food when i feed the fish, but maybe he needs something more.

The food I am using is the "recipe" of ingredients recommended by Kevinpo. I'll have to do some research to see if it contains the necessary feeding elements for the cleaner. I'll add some if it doesn't, or maybe add more if it does. I'll give that a try for a little while and see if that fixes the problem. Thanks again!

 

[Zenoah1439]

Hey Lee,

I finally tracked down the culprit. It ended up being my Azure Damsel. I woke up this morning to it going after my remaining clown and pecking at its fins (similar damage was found on the Cardinal). The clown wasn't doing very well so i isolated him. Unfortunately it did not make it...

In an effort to prevent any further occurrences I pulled the damsel out and took it back to the SFS. Unfortunately, the damsel managed to get both my clown and my cleaner shrimp (during a molt as it looks) over night. This only leaves me with 1 remaining fish, my coral beauty.

This may be a change in post "direction" so i apologize in advance. But, i now have the need to replace my livestock and would like to avoid if possible any recurrences of "the dead sea". My ultimate goal is to work with Kevinpo to get some LPS coral in my tank. I still have a ways to go before I consider myself ready for coral (still need sump and protein skimmer), but I'd like to have the fish fairly well established before the coral introduction. My ultimate question is the following:

I love the Volitan Lionfish, but understand that they require a MUCH bigger tank than my current 40g breeder. However, would a dwarf lion fish do well in a coral tank with only a coral beauty? I've done a lot of reading on them, and it sounds like the Fu Man Chu and zebra dwarf's stay small enough to keep in a 40g, but I'm not sure if that considers coral. What are your opinions on a dwarf zebra's compatibility with a Coral Beauty and do you have an opinion on how "happy" it would be in only a 40g tank? I'd really like one, but am not willing to sacrifice my fish's comfortability in a smaller tank.

 

[leebca]

Corals don't contribute to the nitrogen waste cycle, so they don't add in (much) to the bioload. However, they are sensitive to nitrates -- the end product of biological filtration (nitrification). One CB would be fine. The Dwarf Lion would be fine, with the CB, however they will produce a lot of nitrogen wastes. The Lion fishes, since they are predatory and don't eat daily, tend to take in a large 'shot' of food, and subsequently, drop a heavy load of nitrogen waste.

If you do decide to go with these two fishes, you need to be sensitive to the types of corals you put in -- you don't want those that can't handle 'some' nitrates.

 

[Darthv247]

sounds like your wife was practicing spear fishing to me !

 

[Frankie]

LOL Darth

It sounds more like you have a stow away in your aquarium that you are not aware of. After many years of being in the hobby I have yet to see cleaner shrimp do more then kill off other shrimp species. And that is rare.

Try doing some night hunting with a red led flashlight. While looking at your reef at night listen also for sounds. See if you hear any clicking.