Quarantine Procedures: What's the Scoop?

[steve-s]

In order not to pull focus from the "Newbies guide to the nano reef", I have opted to start a new thread to discuss the topic further. The link from said topic can be found <<here>>

I hope to continue the discussion here so others as well as 4251cpd (Mike?) might join in.

The info is quite correct and I doubt it will change but I think you take on it might be "off". Hyposaline conditions are in the range of 14-16 ppt (1.011-1.012 SG). Your typical LFS water level will be about 25 ppt (1.019 SG) which will kill absolutely nothing in regards to a parasite. The best that will be achieved at that level (1.019 SG) is some stress reduction/energy conservation as well as helping to reduce the instances of bacterial infections.


I look forward to that part concerning fish but I would also hope you address invert/non fish quarantine as well. I realize the desire for "space saving" in regards to a nano being desirable in the first place but if a fish/coral/snail parasite is introduced directly into the nano display, how do you effectively deal with it or for that matter why would you when the risk can be eliminated?

Cheers
Steve

The following is from 4251cpd

Steve your 1st point is correct as I should have prefaced my statement with "as part of a strategy" to combat the parasites. Higher temps, lowered sg and a copper or like, treatment in a QT.

Two issues with that. A salinity low enough to do anything would cause problems with a copper treatment. Hyposalinity should never be combined with copper. If pH bottoms out or does not remain stable, it can cause the copper to become toxic rather quickly. A slightly reduced salinity in that case is of no benefit so it's not worth considering.

In regards to temp increases, they work against you. There is no advantage to this. Higher temps actually affect the pH of the fish's blood making it even more suseptible to parasite infection and secondary bacterial infections. The result of the pH change in the blood actually lowers the fishs immune respone. The necessary temp needed to kill the more common parasite seen in the hobby is well above 90°. With Cryptocaryon in particular, it's optimum reproductive stage is actually 86°. High temps also mean less O2 in the water which in turn will lead to brown blood disease and suffocation.

I understand why some might want to do this. The mind set being, the parasite will run through it's life cycle faster eliminating it all that much quicker. In reality it often does not help and risks the longevity of the fish being treated.

Well, I use a temporary QT, it's a 5-gallon bucket w/ lighting and heater and pump. Sounds kind of crude but it works. Just will have to break down and get a 10 gallon fragging tank.
Fish QT is easy, not much need for light, barebottom to clean daily small water changes and I keep a pad of filter floss in a corner of the sump in hopes that good bacteria is colonizing on it just for said QT purpose

No argument there. Any QT will do in a pinch.

With fish, I have found positive results of a FW bath prior to putting in a QT.

For what purpose unless you suspect simple tubellarians? Most parasites will be unaffected by FW dips. It definately has it's uses but I think it should be a means to an end, not a shotgun approach.

The point about snails, after the researching I've done, marine snails and their problems seem to be specific to them and not other animals. So I may get put to the stake for this statement but here it goes: QTing snails and crabs would be too overcautious in the fact that the time, money and effort for an animal that reportedly does not carry dangerous pests that effect fish, or coral. Let me ask you a question, when starting your tank did you QT any hitch hiker you found in your tank? If not, why not? So, no I did not QT any snails and have lost one to crab predation.

You have no idea how many posts I've responded to about this issue. People "mysteriously" report a case of Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium with absolutely no fish introductions in months. The cause is pretty much always linked to the recent addition of an unquarantined species of invertebrate or hard surface item. Wether that be rocks, corals, frags, shells, shrimp and so on. It's much more common than you think.

That particular part of my post was not soley in regard to fish parasites either. Hitchiker parasites are not fish specific. Flatworms, aiptasia, whelks, sundial snails, hydriods, predaceous worms, nudibranch and more. The list is very very long.

QTing snails and crabs would be too overcautious in the fact that the time, money and effort for an animal that reportedly does not carry dangerous pests that effect fish, or coral. Let me ask you a question, when starting your tank did you QT any hitch hiker you found in your tank? If not, why not? So, no I did not QT any snails and have lost one to crab predation.

Firstly, anything with a hard surface can carry in fish parasites. The risk is just as dangerous as adding an unquarantined fish.

When I started my tank I made many mistakes I wish I could turn back the clock on. Suffice it to say though, absolutely nothing wet gets into one of my tanks that has not been QT'd first. I have a 30 gal for fish and a 5.5 gal for corals. I also have rubbermaid totes stored if needed.

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Great topic! Apologies ahead of time if my thoughts seem sporadic.

I agree with everything that has been said, yet my tank has not had much in the way of QT procedures, except for the SPS. The SPS did not receive a full month in QT, despite knowing they should have gone a full month. At the most a week, with an interceptor treatment upon introduction to the QT (one time I did go two weeks with SPS in QT and things did not go so well). I think the problem a lot of hobbyists run into is "Instant Gratification". Also, the thought of caring for a QT tank, might seem like a load of extra work. I recently went over to a friend's house with an incredible QT set-up for new fish introductions. There were 3 QT tanks going (at least?) and fish were getting a lot of care and attention. For alot of my inverts, I have concern for their well being in QT, which I know is the wrong attitude, and not right at all. Some justifications might be....perhaps their food source won't be met, and they'll die off in QT....or....in the smaller QT tank, I run the risk of chemistry swings which could kill off the $100 coral I just purchased. Or, how do you care for a delicate anemone in a QT system? Maybe we spend all the time learning how to best care for delicate inverts in our larger systems, and worry that in a small (10 gallon) QT tank, they won't fair so well, when they likely have a better chance making it in the display tank.

There really isn't an excuse for not QTing....it can be a fairly simple set-up, and it is only for 4-6 weeks. Sure beats taking care of something in QT, rather than wondering how to get rid of the nastiness that plagues the tank.

Here is a link to a discussion we had in Anthony's forum on... Coral Quarantine

 

[4251cpd]

Are you catholic Steve? Because I haven't had a guilt trip this bad in years. And my mother was the jedi master of those. You are absolutely correct in all of your assertions. Not that I'm trying to meekly justifying the non use of QT for the snails, They were the first in. I wait usually a month before introducing anything to the tank. Partly because we're in the middle of a foreign adoption, the other is the nano tank bioload issue. The normal QT is 4 weeks anyway so I did not see any harm in doing it this way. Plus I was able to remove a number of unwanteds before I added a skunk cleaner. Then a couple of weeks obtained my clown, QT'd and so on. I'll be the first to say to you "see ya told me so" if something were to go wrong but QTing the initial clean up crew seemed pointless since I was essentially leaving the tank fallow of any prime hosts for a month. Appreciate this interlocution with ya, holler at ya later, Mike.

 

[steve-s]

Are you catholic Steve? Because I haven't had a guilt trip this bad in years. And my mother was the jedi master of those.

Not catholic no but whatever it takes to get you there, I'm all over it... :lol:

I can appreciate your circumstances and I do not mean to put this on your shoulders specifically. I can assure you, I am not trying to pick on you or single you out. Let's just say you where in the wrong place at the right time.

It's a topic I see skipped or misinterpreted quite often and I have no wish to see it perpetuated. I see your thread as being great resource for nano keepers and new hobbyists alike. This is/will be one of the most important steps that is far too often learned the hard way. I don't want that to happen here or elsewhere.

FWIW, you'll never hear me say I told you so.

I wait usually a month before introducing anything to the tank. Partly because we're in the middle of a foreign adoption, the other is the nano tank bioload issue.

The first issue aside, the problem still remains. A potential pathogen/parasite may have been added to the tank. Parasitic worms and/or copepods can be a nightmare. Would that month waiting time eliminate their potential?

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

The first issue aside, the problem still remains. A potential pathogen/parasite may have been added to the tank. Parasitic worms and/or copepods can be a nightmare. Would that month waiting time eliminate their potential?

Cheers
Steve

That depends really on the life cycle of whatever the problem may be. For example...could the nasty isopods have been detritus eaters, and fed off of detritus in the live rock for a month or so? Maybe the mantis or crab hung in there the time of LR QT without a meal....or ate stomatellas or other hitchiking critters. All it would take is one Convolutriloba retrogemma to last QT on live rock (small enough how would you see it?) to start a plague once conditions are more favorable. For sure, QT can reduce the chances of alot of pathogens/parasites, especially if we are talking something that needs a specific host.

I'm not saying these are my beliefs...but I like to play the other side of the coin. I had a history teacher one time that said I would make a great attorney .

 

[reedman]

Steve, can you elaborate or point me to a good link on setting up a QT.

I have a 15 gallon tank that I am going to use to QT new animals. 1 tube flourecent light, heater, simple in tank filter, air stone and pump (if necessary). Anything obvious I'm missing?

Here's my curiousity. I don't plan to keep the tank setup at all times...only when I get new specimens. So my thought was that I can put a sponge in my main tank sump a couple days before I plan to add something to colonize it with bacteria. Then I can do a water change on the main tank and put that water in the QT along with the sponge. Let that go for a day or two to stablize then use the QT.

Could you comment on this or offer suggestions on ways to improve?

Thanks & great topic without enough coverage IMHO

 

[steve-s]

That depends really on the life cycle of whatever the problem may be. For example...could the nasty isopods have been detritus eaters, and fed off of detritus in the live rock for a month or so? .

Actually make that at minimum 6 months. Parasitic isopods can live off the detritus in a tank for upto a year without fish sources.

True the problem is limited by the lifecycle of a particular parasite but most hobbyists have limited resources in properly identifying these pests. A crab, shrimp, snail or clam can also carry and be intermediate host to worm parasites that will infect fish. Same goes for isopods and parasitic copepods. None of which may be immediately noticed. A proper 4 week QT cycle would eliminate a necessary stage in the parsites life cycle and eliminate it.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Steve, can you elaborate or point me to a good link on setting up a QT.

I have a 15 gallon tank that I am going to use to QT new animals. 1 tube flourecent light, heater, simple in tank filter, air stone and pump (if necessary). Anything obvious I'm missing?

Personally I prefer HOB's with biowheels. They are amazingly efficient at ammonia/nitrite reduction and offer a chemical filtration stage where carbon or nitrogen sorbing media may be used where meds are not present. I would also suggest a low velocity powerhead over the airstone. The powerhead will not create bubbles in the water which may lead to gas bubble disease and is far more efficient at gas exchange. Keep in mind the overhead light is secondary. It should only be turned on when assessing the fish's health, otherwise it should be left off to reduce stress.

Here's my curiousity. I don't plan to keep the tank setup at all times...only when I get new specimens. So my thought was that I can put a sponge in my main tank sump a couple days before I plan to add something to colonize it with bacteria. Then I can do a water change on the main tank and put that water in the QT along with the sponge. Let that go for a day or two to stablize then use the QT.
Could you comment on this or offer suggestions on ways to improve?

A couple of days is really not enough time to add an effective amount of bacteria to a seeding source. At minimum you need a week but ideally two. The seeding source, in this case a sponge, cannot simpley be placed in the sump passively. It must actually be operating to be an effective seeding source. This may not be advantageous as the air bubbles from an air driven filter could be a nuisance in the main system. That is something each individual will need to address based on their system. Some never have an issue. Once it has been used in the QT you also run risk the med contamination if used so it can be exspensive to replace as it should not be used in the main display after that point. Again, the HOB with biowheel will prove more advantageous. The wheel can be removed/replaced as needed more economically and placed at the outsource of the overflow where water can pass over it. They also do not become clogged like sponge filters and add to nitrogen issues rather than eliminate them. The sponge can be done this way as well but water usually passes around it, not through it depending on the force of the water.

Sponge filters work, don't get me wrong. I just don't feel they are as efficient or maintenance free as a HOB. You also end up not disturbing the inhabitants as much with cleaning maintenance.

Cheers
Steve

 

[reedman]

Thanks Steve.

So the lighting I understand and the airstone was just lying around, so I'll just not use it. The internal filter will provide flow similar to a low flow powerhead so I should be set there.

So a week of time to "seed" the QT and have it be "safe" for the new fish, eh? I can live with that.

On the sponge: I had read that this was a good way to intoduce bacteria into an otherwise "sterile" system. I understand your ascertion that there are better ways to do this, but wouldn't the sponge (if placed in the flow of the sump) populate with bacteria? I was not planning to reuse the sponge so no issue there. The sponge is not part of the filter, just a sponge from an old filter setup. Based on what you have said would I need to force water through the sponge in the QT tank to have the bacteria be beneficial to the system? For example, place the sponge on the intake of a PH.

Finally, what about the use of water change water from the main tank as a source for the QT tank? Is it better to just use clean fresh synthetic saltwater or established tank water (from a presumably healthy tank)?

Thanks again! Great info.

 

[Maxx]

Steve,
great thread, thanks for starting it up.

I'm curious about this statement:

the HOB with biowheel will prove more advantageous. The wheel can be removed/replaced as needed more economically and placed at the outsource of the overflow where water can pass over it. They also do not become clogged like sponge filters and add to nitrogen issues rather than eliminate them.

My understanding of the nitrogen cycle is not much better than the one passed onto newcommers to the hobby, but I was under the assumption that aerobic bacteria would gerate nitrate as waste while processing ammonia. The bacteria that would colonize this biowheel would primarily be aerobic, but IIRC, some facultative anerobic bacteria would also be present, although not at a sufficient population to be able to effectively reduce nitrate levels to a point where it wouldnt be an issue to corals or other delicate inverts.

If I'm understanding you correctly, these dont pose that kind of problem?

Nick

 

[Scooterman]

This is a neat thread, I'll learn something here!
Thanks Steve!:shock:

 

[Krish]

Great thread Steve! I need to learn this stuff for sure! I'm ashamed (and you guys could use me as an example even though I never got ich or anything bad from doing it...yet) I float the bag for 15 minutes and that's it! I don't put very many things in my tank as some of you already know, but it is coral time so I need to be more careful. I'll be following along because I got to get a quarantine tank setup

 

[steve-s]

On the sponge: I had read that this was a good way to intoduce bacteria into an otherwise "sterile" system. I understand your ascertion that there are better ways to do this, but wouldn't the sponge (if placed in the flow of the sump) populate with bacteria? I was not planning to reuse the sponge so no issue there. The sponge is not part of the filter, just a sponge from an old filter setup. Based on what you have said would I need to force water through the sponge in the QT tank to have the bacteria be beneficial to the system? For example, place the sponge on the intake of a PH.

Placing the sponge over the intake of a weired powerhead inlet would be the most efficient. As I you noted though, the use of a HOB/biowheel is just more convenient and less maintenace. Albeit notr as efficient, the sponge will work just fine. I have no issue with them persay, just a better way to dig a hole so to speak.

Finally, what about the use of water change water from the main tank as a source for the QT tank? Is it better to just use clean fresh synthetic saltwater or established tank water (from a presumably healthy tank)?

Personally I prefer newly made synthetic SW that's been aged/aerated for at least a day. Personally I make my water days in advance. The largest concern with display tank water is if infected, you can/will potentially reintroduce problems currently being treated or introduce new problems. The display tank water will also have a level of DOC/contaminates in the water that can lower already hard to maintain QT water quality. The newly made water also has a much stronger chemistry that makes it easier to maintain pH.

Along the same line of thinking (display tank to QT), you should also never share equipment between the QT and display. You run a great risk of cross contamination unless completely air dried or steralized. Due to bacterial concerns, I prefer a weak bleach solution, detoxify and then air dry.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MikeS]

Good thread...

lots of good points brought up here, and unfortuately, I have little more than my own personal experience anecdotes to bring to it...:lol:

To me, the proper use of QT tanks is yet another topic that falls into the "grey" area. I'll qualify all this ahead of time by saying I use QT tanks for new fish, and if I need to medicate a sick fish, but that's about it. I don't use them for inverts or corals.

On new fish...I QT new fish not so much out of fear of introducing illness to the main tank, as most of these parasites/bacteria/fungal goodies are usually already present in the tank to one degree or another or in one stage or another, but mainly so I can treat a new fish away from the main tank should it develop a problem. I think that most of the illnesses we are concerned with are already present in the tank, but it does take certain conditions to bring them out. I'll agree that introducing a sick fish isn't a good idea, as this can lead to increased populations of pathogens/parasites in the tank, which could cause a general outbreak under certain conditions. However, in a healthy, well maintained tank, I think these outbreaks will be rare.

On the parasites living on hard surfaces....sure they do, most nasties like that have a long life cycle in a sporeitic state (sp). But IMO it's unrealistic to try to QT snails and crabs and such, as some of these parasites can survive in a spore form for a very long time, and they still need proper conditions in the main tank to come out of dormancy and rear their ugly heads...a healthy tank will go a long way towards preventing this.

With corals it's a different story. I have an LPS/Softie tank, so things like red bugs are not really a concern of mine yet. If I had an SPS tank, sure, I would definately QT new SPS frags until I was satisfied they were bug free.

MikeS

 

[steve-s]

I'm curious about this statement:
My understanding of the nitrogen cycle is not much better than the one passed onto newcommers to the hobby, but I was under the assumption that aerobic bacteria would gerate nitrate as waste while processing ammonia. The bacteria that would colonize this biowheel would primarily be aerobic, but IIRC, some facultative anerobic bacteria would also be present, although not at a sufficient population to be able to effectively reduce nitrate levels to a point where it wouldnt be an issue to corals or other delicate inverts.

If I'm understanding you correctly, these dont pose that kind of problem?

Nick

The two biggest concerns in a QT (fish anyway) are ammonia and nitrite. The aerobic action of the biowheel will/should deal with both of these quite effectively and quickly. Given the smaller size of most QT's, I would put biowheels ahead of wet/dry's in their efficiency and speed of this process. Nitrate will be a concern no matter what filtration scheme you use. The only way to combat that is via water changes. Most will need to rely on water changes due to many treatments being affected by the use of nitrogen neutralizing products. The largest issue with nitrate is bacterial infections. The above is basically for a fish quarantine.

For an invert QT, you would really need to either leave one running all the time or preplan all purchases. Which in all honesty is the best practice. Since there is little or no waste rpoduction from a majority of these critters, nitrate is much less an issue and easily controlled via weekly or twice weekly water changes. I love small Nano's for this. I keep a 5.5 mini running on a shelf all the time for this. Works out fine and is little or no maintenance. The size of the tank would need to be adjusted for the average size of items being purchased but for the most part a small 5-10 gallon is plenty. I leave a group of sexy shrimp in there between QT additions to keep it cleaned up.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

I think that most of the illnesses we are concerned with are already present in the tank, but it does take certain conditions to bring them out. I'll agree that introducing a sick fish isn't a good idea, as this can lead to increased populations of pathogens/parasites in the tank, which could cause a general outbreak under certain conditions. However, in a healthy, well maintained tank, I think these outbreaks will be rare.

A healthy fish and/or a healthy tank won't prevent animals from becoming infested/sick. It needs to be introduced to the tank in order to get to that point. If it's not introduced, the problem will never exist.

I am only guessing at what you are refering to as "already present" but I'm pretty sure I don't agree. Can you elaborate?

On the parasites living on hard surfaces....sure they do, most nasties like that have a long life cycle in a sporeitic state (sp). But IMO it's unrealistic to try to QT snails and crabs and such, as some of these parasites can survive in a spore form for a very long time, and they still need proper conditions in the main tank to come out of dormancy and rear their ugly heads...a healthy tank will go a long way towards preventing this.

I'll bite on this one too, what are "the right conditions"?

Cheers
Steve

 

[MikeS]

A healthy fish and/or a healthy tank won't prevent animals from becoming infested/sick..

Perhaps not, but it does go a long way towards it. If a fish is stressed out and struggling due to poor tank conditions, than parasites/bacteria/fungal infections have an easier target to hit, one that is less likely to be able to effectively fight them off in a natural way.

It needs to be introduced to the tank in order to get to that point. If it's not introduced, the problem will never exist.

Agreed. However, most of these nasties are already there. It's a two-fold kind of thing, I'll elaborate more in a bit. On introduction of said nasites...I think this is very difficult to aviod. They occur natually, and there are so many different ways to indrodcue them. For example, I look back on my old FO days many years ago. When I started, I sterilized everything...I boiled the dead coral skeletons, I used bleach on them, I did the same thing with my substrate....I QT'd new fish, yet I would still get diatoms, algae, illnes, whatever, ect...these things simply found a way into the tank. On the fish?, a spot I missed on the rock?, in the food I fed the fish?, From the water I was using? Floating around in the air, who knows? They still found a way into my tank. These things are naturally occuring and common, most lie dormant until proper conditions present themsevles, and you'll always have them. The other part is parasite/bacterai/fungi populations...larger numbers mean an increased likelyhood an outbreak could occur....

I'll bite on this one too, what are "the right conditions"?

Cheers
Steve

Any condtion that allows your fish to be in a weakend state where it cannot fend off the infection/infestation by its own means...

I have not lost a fish to illness in well over 10 years....I do QT, but only long enough to make sure the fish doesnt need treatment.

MikeS

 

[reedman]

Great info here. Thanks!

So let me summarize what I think I heard said:

1. Use fresh aged synthetic water for the QT to prevent any of the nasties from the main tank from entering the QT
2. Watch nitrite and amonia in the Fish QT as these have the biggest negative affect on fish
3. Keep QT equipment separate from main tank equipment to prevent cross contamination
4. a sponge will work fine, though it might not be the most efficient way to establish a bacterial population
5. lights are more for me to observe than for the fish

Great thread

 

[steve-s]

Actually Mike, pretty much all of what your refering to above is bacterial or algae related. I won't argue with you on the point that good husbandry is the best means to prevent it. In 99.9% of the case, the potential will always exist. Proper care of the system and it's animals will almost always stem the issue or tip the balance in the animals favor.

I guess my biggest (strongest?) point is in regards to parasites. No amount of "display tank" husbandry can prevent/cure what feeds off the animals you place in the tank. All parasites have either a direct or indirect lifecycle in which at some point interacts with those animals. This is not restricted solely to fish as you already know. I'm sure you'll admit that even in an SPS only tank, there more than red bugs to be concerned about. In fact, in a genus/species dominated tank the risk of such pests should be even more a concern. Fish aside, if you introduce a dietary specific parasite to a potential buffet, you risk more than your average garden reefer.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Great info here. Thanks!

So let me summarize what I think I heard said:

1. Use fresh aged synthetic water for the QT to prevent any of the nasties from the main tank from entering the QT
2. Watch nitrite and amonia in the Fish QT as these have the biggest negative affect on fish
3. Keep QT equipment separate from main tank equipment to prevent cross contamination
4. a sponge will work fine, though it might not be the most efficient way to establish a bacterial population
5. lights are more for me to observe than for the fish

Great thread

In a nutshell, pretty much. Nitrate should still be kept an eye on though. As I said, there is always the potential for bacterial infections especially if treating for a parasite that affects the dermis/epethilium/gills. The lower the nitrate level, the more managable it will be.

Cheers
Steve