Question about feeding a community tank?

[ac7av]

I read over the sticky on how to feed macro algae to marine fishes. I have a community tank and feed give or take 5 times a day do to the needs of some of the fish in the tank. I have been putting different algae types on a couple of clips for the tangs in the tank. I have been trying to be consistent on the amount and frequency I put food in the tank but I have a couple of fish that seem to just stuff themselves and will keep eating as lone as there is food in the tank. If I make sure there is always food in the tank for them like on the weekends they don’t stuff themselves so much but I didn’t think I should always have something hanging on the clip. Any ideas on how to get the fish to not eat so much that it looks like they eat a hand full of BB’s? I feed on the clips during the week green red and brown algae and I give them enough for it to last about an hour before they are trying to suck out the last little bit in the clip jaws. I feed two different types of flake, brine shrimp live and freeze dried, and mysis shrimp 3 times a day during the week and sometimes more often but lesser amounts on the weekends.

Now I could just be nit picking but I want the fish to be healthy. Like Lee said in the sticky, the suppliers and stores probably don’t spend a lot of time feeding correctly, the fish because they are only around for a short time. Most of the fish I have ever purchased have all been a bit on the thin size if not looking like they are starving.

I think I would have not really cared so much about the eating habits of my fish but after reading about the angel fish that got sick and recovered from it because of good healthy eating habits if figured I better pay attention.

The two fish I am mostly concerned about is the Vlamingii and Blonde Naso tangs. Once I got them to start eating dried foods its like they just eat that stuff like its candy. Its like there is a little too much eating competition or something going on. Those two are best pals in the tank but they can sure tear up some algae. It funny when they rip off a big piece and play tug of war with it until its all gone.

Am I just concerned about nothing or should I try to change something? After all a fat fish must be un healthy?

 

[NC2WA]

As far as the last statement, I will let Lee answer it. However, from what I've learned from Lee is a healthy fish is NOT a fat belly. the dorsal part of the fish is where all the fat is stored and is a good indication of a healthy fish.

But I have a 8" blonde naso tang, purple tang, kole tang, and blue face angelfish that devour 2 sheets of algae in less than 5 mins...Since I do regular feedings 3X a day (one of them with purely spurlina), I only offer the algae once every 3 days..

Keep in mind tangs are herbivore and primary diet is greens.

HTH
Kirk

 

[ac7av]

Ya I’ve herd that too about the fat bellies. They only have fat bellies after they have eaten everything. All my fish are still small, 3 inches or so. The bodies of the fish are starting to thicken, I was worried about how much they are still trying to eat. It almost looks like the two of them eat so much they have a little trouble moving. When I walk into the living room you would think the chuck wagon just drove in. I have 20 fish all piled up in the corner of the tank where I pour the food in, I can almost here the feed me sound from the tank.

 

[leebca]

Thanks for the post.

It is the nature of Tangs to graze the reef. That is, they eat almost all the time. The balance of the time is spent procreating or resting.

Tangs are one of my most favorite of marine fishes so I'd had my share of them over the years. Maybe conservatively, about 150+.

Some of them go through a phase where they will stuff themselves, but they change out of this phase when the following conditions are met:

1. The fish comes to understand it gets fed regularly;
2. The fish comes to understand it will get fed enough;
3. The fish is getting all the nutrients it needs; and
4. The stressors on the fish have been significantly reduced or eliminated.

It is fairly easy for some hobbyists to meet the requirements leading to the results of 1. and 2. It's a bit more challenging to get the fish to the point where it is getting all that it requires in the way of nutrients (3.), and 4. can be the breaking point.

Simply put, (3.) the fish is starving (no matter how much it eats) if it is not getting the proper nutrition. Thus, the fish overeats. It may take time to right this wrong, even when the fish IS being provided the proper nutrients.

Regarding 4. there are multiple stress points to captivity. There is water quality, tank mates, tank size (space issues), tank length (enough long swimming distance), water and environment stability, etc.

So the above is what needs to be accomplished, but what you specifically need to do is up to you to discover. I can help in that discovery, but it takes a lot of information from you to me and in detail. Most hobbyists don't want to do one or both of these.

Some of my Tangs go through this phase, but they that do, in fact go through it and end up eating normally.

So to continue on as things are, your best option is to split the feeding at different ends of the tank -- spread out the feeding zone -- to make sure the slower eaters do get their fill. A second thing is to corral the eager eaters until the slower eaters get their fill (not easy in the average decorated tank, of course). And finally, put the over eaters in their own aquarium.

 

[ac7av]

Thanks Lee
That’s some good information and some things to try.
Before I had sand, rock and water in the tank I had a plan on what fish and so on that I was going to put into the system. This setup was put together to hopefully satisfy the needs of tangs. And I believe I have accomplished that as much as could be done in a normal type home aquarium. All the fish seem to be happy and there is no fighting going on over space or anything that I’ve seen. I have been feeding a verity of foods to try and make sure that they are getting what they need. I have been on top of the water quality and have several damsel fish that are breeding in the tank now. Ive had 4 hatches in the last month that I know of. I have not had the tangs very long and the next time I get a new supply of food I will get different brands to try as you described in the sticky. Feeding the fish on opposite sides of the tank is something I will try. I had been putting 2 clips in the tank both in the left front corner so I can see what’s going on.
Lee do you have any experience with the clown tang? I have been wanting to add one to the tank but the information I have found on them is unclear on the behavior. Bold, aggressive, plays well with others as long as its not another clown?

 

[leebca]

Both A. lineatus and A. sohal are favorites, but do require special accommodations.

They need extra tank length. They do not get along with most other Tangs. Even when added last, they will end up dominating the other Tangs (and a few other fishes as well). They maintain the dominance by chasing others away at feeding time; away from 'imagined' private territory; and sometimes just because the other fish is there!

These are best when very much (more than 3") shorter than any other Tang in the tank that is 6 to 8 feet long to start.

I read what you wrote. I don't mean to be confrontational, but I can assure you that, even though you don't see it, any mixed group of Tangs have established a pecking order that is routinely maintained through subtle behaviors, signals, and chemicals. That is to say, the more Tangs the more stress is present. Sometimes this is communicated just by a 'look.'

This is not a 'problem' with the hobbyist nor of casual observation. It is just that fish communicate on a whole other level in their water environment, which pretty much goes over our heads.

 

[ac7av]

Hay Lee, your not being confrontational at all. I probably made it sound a bit like my fish don’t stink. I have tried to choose the tangs carefully to prevent any problems. I know there will be some pecking order and there is never any way to tell for sure how they will get along and that could even change. I think I will pass on the clown. I just like the look of it and that is not the only thing to consider, I know.

I had another question about the type of food tangs eat. In your sticky you said that they eat mostly green algae? Is this true? Every website and vender I have looked at online all say they almost exclusively eat brown algae. Of the three types I have they will eat the brown first every time it hits the tank and the green is always last and they will even eat around it before the even take a bite. Maybe is one of those things like people do, or at least I do, I don’t like anything that’s good for me and Ill eat it last.

 

[leebca]

Rotating the algae is important. You have to treat them like children. Get them to eat what is best for them first, then offer the other in smaller amounts.

Small Tangs (I don't think you mentioned the size of yours) are omnivores. They pretty much eat whatever they can. As they grow larger (over 4") they tend to go herbivore. When larger and schooled they are almost strict herbivores unless a dead marine life form provides protein. In this state, they find primarily green algae on the reef and it makes up most of their vegetable diet. This is from cutting them open and looking at their digestive tracks in the wild.

My Tangs get to the point that when I drop in a open raw clam, they inspect it and swim away while some of the other fishes rip away at it.

In the aquarium, conditions are different and it's best to keep them omnivore oriented like 20/80 carnivore/herbivore.

Because I like Tangs, Butterflies, and Dwarf and Large Angels I've made my own food. These fish need a large quantity of green in their diet and the best source I have found is spirulina and powdered kelp. Few frozen, prepared products have a high enough content of these, in my opinion. So when you do choose 'other' foods, choose those with spirulina and kelp. For instance, though you don't want to feed brine shrimp more than once or twice every 21 meals, choose brine shrimp gut loaded with spirulina.

Avoid foods that are carnivore oriented, like mysis and the flesh of other marine life forms. The problem with a community tank is that you really don't want strict carnivores in with these guys -- it can make things more difficult unless the carnivore is a predatory - single gulp - kind of carnivore (e.g., the Harlequin Tusk).

Most important is your choice of vitamins. Use them a lot, along with HUFA supplements. Also, vary them. Lastly keep adding micro elements to the tank water as I had recommended in the post.

Once you get the above down, a lot has to do with their current size, relationships, and the space they have in the aquarium, as to their calming down/settling in and eating 'regularly.'

 

[ac7av]

I am un familiar with spirulina.
I did a search for it and it looks like this is something that is in powder or capsule form. How do I feed this to the fish? Or is it available some ware in a form ready to feed to fish?

Is there a brand / type of vitamins you would recommend using and how do you administer them to the fish?

I have been hatching my own brine shrimp, I was under the impression that they are good for stimulating fish to eat and a good source of nutrients for young fish? Feeding once every 21 days doesn’t seem like it would be much use for this.

I am not apposed to making my own food. Do you have a recipe that you use to create this. My tank consists of the very fish you say you like. I have tangs all small 3 in or less, a butterfly, dwarf angle, large angle, dotty back, 2 cardinals, some damsels, a shrimp, 2 hermits, and a crab.

My tank is a 210 gallon 6 food long with lots of rock work for even the biggest fish, if I had one of 1.5 feet would have a place to hide if it felt the need. The fish have the access to the full length of the tank for swimming and extensive rock work for grazing, zooming around, and hiding. The rock work is so 3 dimensional on the tank I have not been able to take a picture of it that really translates well to a computer screen or paper. You really just have to see it to understand how it all works. You just have to see the depth of it and you can not see that on pictures.

 

[leebca]

Newly hatched brine shrimp is a good food, but not enough. Nutritionally they contain a lot of HUFAs. Not too good for large fish, however. They just can't enough of them. The 1/21 brine shrimp are the 'after hatchings' have used up their egg sac.

Vitamins are covered in this post: Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition

Spirulina is used as a food additive. You should find it in prepared frozen foods you buy for marine fishes in the pet stores/LFSs. Using it yourself will have to be in your own foods.

I have not set recipe. Every batch is different. You'll find some ideas in other places: (click on link at bottom of this page) http://www.melevsreef.com/feedings.html

My fav is basically a raw shrimp, squid, scallop, basis with whole krill (frozen) mix as the foundation. For the herbivores, half of that (by volume) is added an equal portion of spirulina and powdered kelp. I add some bulk macro algae from an oriental food store (that I know has no preservatives or additives -- it isn't nori.) Add vitamins and fat supplements all from the sea. The formula keeps changing. It is held together by agar agar which itself is nutritional (and from the sea). The final product is very deep green.

The carnivores will eat it too, but the ones (like the Tusk) I will feed first and 'separately' by giving it a chunk of whole marine life so its interest in the formula is very low -- but it does eat some.

6' is good, but not for the Naso Tang. A 8" Tang must have a bigger/longer tank.

 

[ac7av]

See now I feel bad.
I have two naso tangs, a blonde and vlamingii.
8 inches is not that big a fish. Those babies get a foot or more. I thought I was doing good with the 6 foot 210 instead of the 6 foot 120.

Okay with that said, when these guys get bigger what kind of signs should I keep an eye out for that could indicate they need a bigger tank. The wall I have the tank on is exactly 8 feet long and if I had a reef ready tank with overflows in it I could put it there. My tank now has side overflow and the returns are on the side too so the space is taken up by plumbing now. I mite be interested in getting a longer tank at some time after the kids are older. You know, let them beat this one up first before I get the nice acrylic custom tank.

 

[leebca]

The only 'signs' that humans are able to 'see' are the over-the-hill signs. The fish signals its space problems through a variety of signs that other fish know and 'read' very well. But. . .we are not fish and our ability to 'read' these signs is limited.

So how do we ultimately know there is a problem? Through blood tests and physiological studies and tests. You can read more about that here if you're interested: Fish Stress – A Technical/Physiological Approach.

One subtle sign is behavior when eating. When the fish are eating, many of their deeper stressors come to the surface. The space-stressed fishes are competitive with one another, the foundation of which is that they believe their resources are limited, which translates to a lack of space. They may hog the food; send subtle signals to others to keep a distance from them (at time of eating); or just 'give a look' that we can barely notice. This last bit includes a Tang turning dark at feeding time.

Over-the-hill signs include pacing the tank; swimming with the impression the fish wants 'out' of the tank; slapping at the surface of the tank; and with some fishes, turning dark and light off and on during the 'normal' day.

The 8" Tang is just partially on its way to becoming a fully mature fish. This fish travels up to 25 miles a day on the reef with dozens to hundreds of its kind. It's best tank is the 500 and higher. It's on its way to a point where it belongs in a public aquarium setting with a dozen others of its kind in a huge tank. Keeping Tangs is challenging, but enjoyable.

 

[ac7av]

My Blonde naso does change colors a lot at night just before the last light is turned off. Not in the day time. But I thought is was more of a game it was playing with the other fish. When it does the real dark body color change with white markings on it face, the fish will hide in a hole or all the way into a snail shell and pop out then a fish passes by the opening. It only does this at night. Any ideas on that behavior?

 

[leebca]

That is most likely a signal that the fish is about to settle down and wants an area swept clear of other fishes and intruders. Those that are hiding 'get the message.'