raised pH yesterday....

[chadmace]

I had a pretty big issue with Dino Algae recently and did the whole shorten photo period route to kill them off....which it did quite nicely, however I have been noticing them coming back ever so slightly, so I decided to go the increased pH route to kill them off once and for all. (Hopefully) I picked up some Seachem Reef Buffer which you add x amount to up your pH by .1. I raised the pH of the tank to 8.6, then this morning it was back to its regular 8.0. Is this normal? Will I have to raise the pH daily to fight Dino?

 

[chris&barb]

check your Alk. i bet its pretty high. if you want to maintain a high PH kalk is a better way to do it. drip it 24/7, start off with a faster drip rate to slowly raise the PH(over 12 or 24 hours) then when you hit your target slow the drip rate down to keep it there

 

[Boomer]

Chad the method used is not adding a buffer to rasie pH but Kalk and kalk only to that pH of 8.6. Buffers should not be usde to raise pH EVER, unless one has both a low pH and Alk. As Chris & Brab have pointed out your Alk is proabbly really high and his means is wht you want to do. However, check your Alk and Calcium first before you race off and do this.

 

[chadmace]

Hmm....odd that the lfs would send me in that direction.

I had some water ready before I started tinkering with things. I think I'll do my planned water change and let things settle out before messing with the tank next weekend.

How should I go about dripping kalk? I'm pretty new to adding things to the tank like supliments, buffers, etc. Can this be done without a kalk reactor? What are the most price conscious options?

 

[DonW]

Hmm....odd that the lfs would send me in that direction.

I had some water ready before I started tinkering with things. I think I'll do my planned water change and let things settle out before messing with the tank next weekend.

How should I go about dripping kalk? I'm pretty new to adding things to the tank like supliments, buffers, etc. Can this be done without a kalk reactor? What are the most price conscious options?

I assume that you dont have corals in this tank. I would not add anything even kalk either way your going to end up boosting ca and alk. Dino is not that hard to deal with. I'd start by looking at your fuel inputs and keeping the photo period short until its under control.
Are your using rodi and what brand of salt are you using?

Don

 

[chadmace]

I am using RO/DI water, and have since day 1. I have only used Instant Ocean. I just recently did the routine of shortening my photo period to 4 hours a day, and after about 2 weeks of that my tank was not only void of dino but all algae except my coraline. I had 0 Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. My tank pH is always around 8.0-8.3, and my Salinity at 1.025. After I returned my photoperiod to normal algae started growing back rather quickly, my coraline algae is taking off too. After about a week the dino's started coming back. I tested my water yesterday and noticed a barely detectable level of Nitrite and Nitrate. This is the first time anything I regularly test for has been at a detectable rate in my tank. Right now while the dino algae is at a minimal level I figured I would give the pH route a try. Right now I have fish, live rock, and a small amount of xenia and a small frag of polyps, all of which are fully healthy.

 

[Boomer]

Don

I will have to disagree. Adding Kalk, once his sytem is in line, is not going to rasie the Ca++ and Alk much when he is rasing it from a pH of 8.2-8.3. 1 meq /l of Alk will only rasie the Ca++ 20 ppm and Kalk is not a big Alk booster, buffers are. That Kalk is reacting with CO2 and removing it from the system rasing the pH. Granted, looking at your fuel inputs and keeping the photo period short until its under control.
Are your using rodi and what brand of salt are you using is ture but not true for all systems. At times Dino's are very difficult to remove.

Chad
One other thing are you sure these are dino's any pics ?

 

[chadmace]

I might be able to get a pic later depending on their progression. I'll have to see when I get home from work. Before I shortened my photo period to kill off the algae it was just like this. It was all over the tank glass, over flows, liverock, and sand. After keeping my photo period to 4 hours a day for 1 1/2 to 2 weeks I noticed my tank was pretty much void of all algae but the corraline. Right now I'm back to the stage where I'll have bubbles on the liverock in the morning after the lights come on, and by late in the afternoon there will be stringers coming up with the bubble at the end. Its starting to form on everything from my magnet scraper to my snails. I'm sure if I shorten my photo period again I could have it gone in a couple of days, none the less that is just bandaging the wound.

 

[DonW]

Don

I will have to disagree. Adding Kalk, once his sytem is in line, is not going to rasie the Ca++ and Alk much when he is rasing it from a pH of 8.2-8.3. 1 meq /l of Alk will only rasie the Ca++ 20 ppm and Kalk is not a big Alk booster, buffers are. That Kalk is reacting with CO2 and removing it from the system rasing the pH. Granted, looking at your fuel inputs and keeping the photo period short until its under control.
Are your using rodi and what brand of salt are you using is ture but not true for all systems. At times Dino's are very difficult to remove.

Chad
One other thing are you sure these are dino's any pics ?

So if we used kalk in a FO system ca and alk is not going to increase with each use?:?:

Don

 

[chadmace]

Here are the best I can do. I am trying to nip this before it gets back to how it was before.

In this picture you can see some of the bubbles near the top rock, you can also sort of see some of the algae:

Here you can see some on a couple of snails.

This one you can't see much but the bubbes.

 

[Boomer]

Don
So if we used kalk in a FO system ca and alk is not going to increase with each use?


Fish only tanks often have Alk and pH problems and often more so than reef tanks because of the heavy feeding and often poor maintenance and water quality.

The issue with the kalk for Dino's is not on a continuous bases but for about 2 wks. That is why I told him not to race into it yet and to see if it is really Dino's, where I would have been more specific about the pH and time of treatment. I probably should have posted that to begin with He also has a lot of coralline algae. Increase in Ca ++ has not effect on fish so that is not an issue ? Many people with FOT tanks never even check Alk or Ca++ just pH, although I would like to see them at least check Alk.

Chad

The pics are kind blurry but that is not what Dino's look like, at least looking at these pics. Looks more like cyano or maybe diatoms, often mis-ID as Dino's. Just because one has a brownish algae with trapped bubble does not make it Dino's

And Article on Dino's

Problem Dinoflagellates and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

Another common Dino pic

 

[DonW]

Don
So if we used kalk in a FO system ca and alk is not going to increase with each use?


Fish only tanks often have Alk and pH problems and often more so than reef tanks because of the heavy feeding and often poor maintenance and water quality.

The issue with the kalk for Dino's is not on a continuous bases but for about 2 wks. That is why I told him not to race into it yet and to see if it is really Dino's, where I would have been more specific about the pH and time of treatment. I probably should have posted that to begin with He also has a lot of coralline algae. Increase in Ca ++ has not effect on fish so that is not an issue ? Many people with FOT tanks never even check Alk or Ca++ just pH, although I would like to see them at least check Alk.

I get it, your plan just nukes them quick with a ph increase (co2 decrease) looking for starvation. I thought this was a old school non productive method, IIRC they pair up and go dormant sort of a hybernation as they begin to suffer photosenthetic startvation. So when the lights go back on and the food sources return they become active again. Thus why some find it difficult to get them gone for good.

Don

Don

 

[chadmace]

I'm sure some of the chemistry is off in my tank. And while I still have problems like this I dont want to start putting corals and such in my tank. Hence why I really only have fish at the moment. I regularly check for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and pH. I was told that until I have corals as long as I do water changes testing for Calcium is pointless. So I take it the next tests I should pick up are Alk and Phosphate? I don't see the point in doing a reef tank unless I am doing it right.

 

[Boomer]

Donny did you reeeadd the article I posted Is it a 100% guarantee, well of course not.

Yes Chad that wold be correct

 

[DonW]

Donny did you reeeadd the article I posted Is it a 100% guarantee, well of course not.

Yes Chad that wold be correct

Yes of course I guess my point would, its still a patch for a cause not a cure. I'd be more apt to go after the cause once they are under control by the elevated ph level.

Don

 

[Boomer]

I agree on that

 

[chadmace]

So I did two 30 gallon water changes this week to get whatever I may have done to my Alk by using that buffer as suggested by a lfs. Before the two changes my coraline algae was starting to turn white, now things are back to normal. Here are my readings today.

PH 8.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Alk 12.2 dKH
Calcium 280
Phosphates I was told was barely detectable when I had them tested at Blue Sierra **I do not know the exact reading because for some reason I didn't ask.**
Salinity 1.025
Temp 78.x

As the algae continues to grow and thrive I am still at a cross roads as to what course of action I should take. Here are some pictures today, mind you that I syphoned it all out yesterday morning.

Here is the sand, you cant tell from the picture but the algae comes up from the bottom, its not just covering in patches it strings up.

Looking at my fuel imput:
Water: RO/DI water from a unit purchased in early March, TDS meter reading 0 on the output. Instant Ocean Salt. I mix it up at least a day or two early, mixing with a Maxi-jet 1200 and heated to tank temp.

I feed my fish when I get home from work and about 30 minutes before lights out. They are fed Formula One, and Formula Two flakes. I put one pinch of one in, they eat it all, I put one pinch of the other in, they eat it all. Occasionally they will get frozen Formula One/Two, and Mysis Shrimp. Excess is syphoned out of the tank.

I skim my tank with an ETSS 800 rated for tanks 175g to 400g. I have a 125. Skimmer cleaned weekly.

Back to the Chemistry.....for sake of my sanity here is whats going to happen. I am going to pick up a Phosban reactor to help control Phosphates weather or not they are the cause of my algae.

Lets assume that these are infact Dino Algae. Reducing Photo period didn't help previously as they came back. So to get them gone once and for all I need to raise my pH by dripping Kalk. What is the bare minimum of equipment I need to do that? I get that I should do that for two weeks? I understand what everyone says to do...just dont really know what I need and how to go about it.

Im going to scream.

 

[Boomer]

Based on those pics you have cyano and not Dino's. Another reason is the how and where they are growing. Cyano's prefer lower current areas as opposed to Dino's which are more high current. Try aiming a power-head at a highly dense area. More than likely that patch will start to disappear. Lastly, Cyano can feed off of organic phosphates by converting it to PO4 and your kit can not measure organic phosphate.

As far as your PO4 we want to keep it .03 ppm PO4 or lower. Even if it read zero one can still have unwanted algae. Various planted forms are capable of removing nutrients, like PO4 and NO3-, as fast as it enters the water, giving zero readings making you think there is not a a PO4-NO3- issue.

You may want to think of investing in a refugium.