Sand bed advice

[surf_buddy]

Hello everyone, I'm a new to RF and I'm hoping I can find some help on my sand bed topic. I've been reef keeping for about 18 months now... and until now I've solely relied on information from books, magazines, and the aquarists at our local saltwater stores. I should start off with what I have running in my system. I have a 55g show tank, a 20g wet/dry, and a 15g refrigum. I use a mag 12 for the return and I have 2 Korillia 3 for circulation, and a spray bar that runs the length of my tank, a Gen 1x in sump protein skimmer, and water top off. I have two 250 watt metal halides, and four 65 watt actinic bulbs. For coral I pretty much have soft corals, mushrooms, zoas, a maxima, and couple SPS and LPS. I also have a spotted mandarin, a blue tang, a green chromis, a blue damsel, and a maroon clown with a green tentacle anomie.

Ok... I'm writing because I was told that the crushed coral substrate was likely causing my Alk and Ca problem since (as I was told) that allows too much detritus to build up and not leave the system. Anyways I got rid of 80% of my sand bed and I really want it back because it just looks so much better.

Can anyone comment on sand beds and what's the best substrate to use by brand, or grain size. I still have about 10 lbs of sand left in the tank as well. Also can anyone comment on this advice I was given and if they have experienced the same thing? Thanks!

 

[mmkeeper]

Welcome to Rf there is alot help here. don't hesitate to ask. It helps if you give your water test number up front. What kind of Ca/Alk problems do you have?

 

[Curtswearing]

Excess detritus in CC could possibley lead to a phosphate or Nitrate problem....not a Calcium or alkalinity problem.

 

[Scooterman]

Welcome to RF! Great way to start off on a new forum. I agree with Curt as well but detritus can build up maybe if you didn't suck it out when cleaning? Talking balance alk & ca you must also include Mg. Try this little on-line tool to see just where you stand but whatever you do don't panic, usually it can be fixed rather easily. BTW your wet/dry do you have bio-balls in it, those will be a problem as well if so.


http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html

 

[surf_buddy]

Welcome to Rf there is alot help here. don't hesitate to ask. It helps if you give your water test number up front. What kind of Ca/Alk problems do you have?

Thanks for the response mmkeeper. I had a problem keeping both my alk above 8 dkh and my Ca above 400. I also had a phosphate issue too which I may have confused with my Ca/Alk issue. I been though just about every issue and sometimes they start to blend together.. thanks Curtwearing : ) All are resolved now. My Phosphate is undectable, my Ca is 420 and my Alk is 10.4 dkh. I use Salifert for testing everything, but I have not tested Mg as Scooterman suggested. I will be buying a test kit soon though : )

Also I have a mixture of bio bals and small pieces of live rock in my wet/dry.

Basically what I meant to ask was if I were to start a sand bed again, how do I keep from running into a phosphate issue again? Also, will it effect my Ca/Alk if levels phosphates rise? Thanks everyone!

 

[mmkeeper]

Not sure about your questions, however a recommendation remove the bioballs they are a nitrate trap.

 

[Scooterman]

but I have not tested Mg as Scooterman suggested. I will be buying a test kit soon though : )

Also I have a mixture of bio bals and small pieces of live rock in my wet/dry.

Basically what I meant to ask was if I were to start a sand bed again, how do I keep from running into a phosphate issue again? Also, will it effect my Ca/Alk if levels phosphates rise? Thanks everyone!

Usually you need to adjust three levels sometimes you can get away without MG but I've found they all work together, so that is a good start, use the calculator to know where you stand on balance & don't try to get it perfect, ca levels between 380 & 420 is very good & I would not try to make it perfect. I would clean the wet/dry & remove all the bio balls & LR rubble in there, Detritus will collect there & will become a Nitrate source. Phosphates should NOT affect your ca, alk & mg balance. Phosphates leads to other problems as in alga blooms, nitrates, nitrites & ammonia issues, which leads to unhealthy fish, coral etc. Wet/dry are a system that once had a fast cure for problems but eventually we find that it hurts just as much in the long run, you can process nitrites, nitrates & ammonia with good LR, SB, skimmer & vacuuming or direct removal before it ever becomes a problem. The key is good husbandry, you can get a good aragonite Sb which will help stabilize your tank, & will last but still required good husbandry, I'll post you some reading on that no one way will ever eliminate phosphates, you always are putting them into the tank, so you must learn how to remove as much as you put in.
Whatever you do, don't make sudden or drastic changes, do them gradual as not to shock or stress your system as it is.


http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-03/rs/index.php

Lots more here!

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30

 

[Reeferdude]

Your question was regarding Calcium, Alkalinity and Phosphate right? Not Nitrate or your bio balls/wet dry. Every system is different as you know. Your wet dry will not cause excessive Phosphate, lower your Alkalinity or increase/decrease your Calcium Levels. My question would be how often do you perform water changes? How often do you feed? How much do you feed. Those I think are more relevant to your Phosphate issues but now that all your issues are resolved, Great! Besides, if you remove your bio balls you won't be able to enjoy the benefits of a Nitrate Factory:lol:

To answer your question. I would slowly re-introduce your substrate by using a funnel and large diameter hose small portions at a time. The amount will vary on the type and condition of the substrate. Your choice of substrate will also vary depending on what your desired outcome is. If it be esthetic's you may consider a shallow bed of fine sand. Or Evan crushed coral depending your flow rate. Fine sand will blow away in some areas. If your looking to create an environment for micro-fauna you may want a deeper one. Your sand bed can be done a million ways it all depends on what your trying to achieve.

 

[surf_buddy]

Thanks Scooterman! This is all very useful information that I will gradually incorporate into my system. I've been thinking about getting a lager refugium, and scrapping the wet dry all together. Based on what you are saying it sounds like the best way to go. I wish I knew of RF when I first started out 15 months ago, so I could have avoided some of the issues I encountered.

 

[ReefferMan]

Im kinda stupid when i comes to this topic. I know that theres a sweet spot that most reeffermen and women like to achieve. 400Ca 8dk and MG1200. The way that i understand the mix is, the MG helps the CA and KH to stay in a liquid state (disolved) you want the MG to be 3 x you CA. Most people, not all , are close to or @ 400 ca and 1200mg. The buffer is easy to get dialed. Remember that our reef water is an unstable mix at an atomic level. Ok back to your initial question.

The CC should not affect the CA and Alk.

I use Argonite sugar size sand/ 2-5' dsb.....kinda..not really a dsb
dont be to concerned on the brand as long as its argonite.


BTW.....Sounds like you have a nice setup! Pix?
Welcome to RF!

 

[surf_buddy]

Your question was regarding Calcium, Alkalinity and Phosphate right? Not Nitrate or your bio balls/wet dry. Every system is different as you know. Your wet dry will not cause excessive Phosphate, lower your Alkalinity or increase/decrease your Calcium Levels. My question would be how often do you perform water changes? How often do you feed? How much do you feed. Those I think are more relevant to your Phosphate issues but now that all your issues are resolved, Great! Besides, if you remove your bio balls you won't be able to enjoy the benefits of a Nitrate Factory

To answer your question. I would slowly re-introduce your substrate by using a funnel and large diameter hose small portions at a time. The amount will vary on the type and condition of the substrate. Your choice of substrate will also vary depending on what your desired outcome is. If it be esthetic's you may consider a shallow bed of fine sand. Or Evan crushed coral depending your flow rate. Fine sand will blow away in some areas. If your looking to create an environment for micro-fauna you may want a deeper one. Your sand bed can be done a million ways it all depends on what your trying to achieve.

I do a 20% water change every 3 weeks, and my Nitrate is undetectable. I feed enough food that gets eaten in 3 minutes, and a dose 2 caps of phytoplankton. I have a refrigum with macro algae and a crocea clam.


Phosphates are doing great now, so I'll think I'll start to slowly reintroduce sand back into the system and see how it goes.

 

[surf_buddy]

Im kinda stupid when i comes to this topic. I know that theres a sweet spot that most reeffermen and women like to achieve. 400Ca 8dk and MG1200. The way that i understand the mix is, the MG helps the CA and KH to stay in a liquid state (disolved) you want the MG to be 3 x you CA. Most people, not all , are close to or @ 400 ca and 1200mg. The buffer is easy to get dialed. Remember that our reef water is an unstable mix at an atomic level. Ok back to your initial question.

The CC should not affect the CA and Alk.

I use Argonite sugar size sand/ 2-5' dsb.....kinda..not really a dsb
dont be to concerned on the brand as long as its argonite.


BTW.....Sounds like you have a nice setup! Pix?
Welcome to RF!

Thanks for the info! I'll put up some picts tonight

 

[dnjan]

Excess detritus in CC could possibley lead to a phosphate or Nitrate problem....not a Calcium or alkalinity problem.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. (well, at least the alkalinity part).

Decaying detritus can produce organic acids as a step in the oxidation process. If you have an accumulation of detritus that is allowed to hang around long enough to decompose, the resulting organic acids will suck down your alkalinity.

Been there, had it happen.

In my opinion, crushed coral needs to be regularly vaccumed. If you don't want to do that, go with very fine sand (sugar-size) and a very lightly-loaded tank. Heavy bioload plus fine sand (deep sandbed) equals frustration plus dissappointment over the long run.

7+ years of the same sandbed,

 

[surf_buddy]

I did have rather coarse crushed coral before I sucked it all out, and I was battaling low alk. I think I'm going to reintroduce a finer gain gradually and see how it goes. Thanks Don : )

 

[Reeferdude]

Actually sounds very similar to my set up. Pics would be nice.

 

[surf_buddy]

Actually sounds very similar to my set up. Pics would be nice.

I have a pic up, but camera battery is dead so I'll have the behind the scenes shot tomorrow.

 

[Curtswearing]

Don is correct. If you allow detritus to collect for too long in crushed coral, you could have some issues. I like more flow than most people have so I spoke without asking the proper questions.

My attitude is that there are Pro's and Con's of every substrate or lack thereof. The important thing is to understand whatever you want in your system. As previously stated, it's a very good idea to vacuum CC regularly. Additionally, many people have mistakenly thought that a DSB makes overstocking your tank fine. It doesn't.

 

[dnjan]

Another comment on DSB. In addition to the concept that understocking is more of a requirement with a DSB than in substrate-less systems (where detritus flushing is easier), it is also important to add livestock more slowly in a DSB system to give plenty of time for the microflora/fauna to adapt to the increased load.

That said, an established DSB system is probably the closest we can approach to a closed ecosystem with a reasonably-sized reef tank. My 100-gal system is over 7 years old. Current fish are 2 yellowtail damsels, a sixline, and a lawnmower blennie. I fed once in August (found some frozen stuff in the freezer). Did not feed in September, October, or yet this month. My fish are existing (and are definitely not skinny) on the flora and fauna produced in the tank.

If I set up another 100-gal-plus tank, would I go wih a DSB? Yes, because I understand the value of patience and going slowly.

 

[Reeferdude]

dnjan, have you had any issues with your deep sand bed calcifying? My sand bed varies. Three levels. Lower in the middle of the tank and deeper on the sides/ends. I noticed much of the deeper bed is rock hard. I've had this happen in other systems in much smaller areas but this covers quite a large section of the substrate...

 

[dnjan]

Not that I've noticed. I suspect that the pH in my sandbed is slightly lower than in the tank water, due to the decomposing detritus, etc. pulled in by the spagheti worms as well as a byproduct of bacteria in the sandbed. I do, however, notice what I can best describe as a three-dimensional weblike structure in the sand if I decide to vaccum a portion at depth instead of just at the surface. Gives it a clumpy texture, but it is definitely soft rather than cemented.