Sand Stirring substrates

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Anthony Calfo

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With a conversation shared with Mike (Mojo) last week in my mind, a post on RC from another interesting chap (Melev) prompted me to update my rant...er, advice/opinions on using substrates in aquaria.

I have posted this in mutliple places, and know that our friends here at RF are all about the information/sharing (and won't get uptight like the big BB boys will/do.).

FWIW, my (first) pass on substrates/sand-stirring, etc:

-----------------

... we can start a discussion of "to stir or not to stir" regarding substrates.

I say "substrates" because we can/should really include all grains and depths in this discussion.

Reason: all substrates (grain/depth) have the potential to become nutrient sinks in time.

in fact, because water flow is so poorly understood, incorrectly applied, and usually inadequate in aquaria... many substrates Do(!) indeed become nutrient sinks in time.

This is not the fault of the media (sand/gravel)... but rather the application(!) (typically overstocked fish tanks, overfed, inadequate water flow, poor skimming, weak water changes, etc.)

Yet that still doesn't change the fact that in real world applications (albeit commonly misapplied), substrates generally do accumulate excessive organics in time.

So why, you may ask, are there some DSB folks (myself included) that go years and years with no trouble at all? That's not luck, but rather the fact that they tend mostly to be the really good aquarists that are diligent to avoid the above mentioned pitfalls. You will find more often that not they stock fish lightly, feed the tank lightly, and/or are often good about (larger) water changes, and most importantly... have exceptional water flow.

Having the correct type of water flow is THE most crucial key to succeeding with any type of substrate. Solids must be kept in suspension long(er) for adequate opportunities for filter-feeders to utilize the, skimmers to export them, mechanical filters to trap them, etc.

If instead you let that, say... teaspoon, solid matter (dish waste, excess food, algae in the tank, detritus, etc) each day find its way slowly to the bottom of the aquarium, then you can imagine what a teaspoon of solids per day, every day, month after month, etc can lead too.

Dissolved organic levels increase, and there is simply a lot of solid-ish unwanted matter suffocating that bed, and worse... leaching undesirable elements into the water.

A neglected substrate of ANY depth is a huge burden on water quality.

So then you may wonder... well, what of all that life in the sand bed? The infuana, meiofauna, whatever-fauna? Aren't they growing, flourishing... recycling or somehow utilizing those nutrients?

Horse puckey!

Now wait... don't get me wrong. I AM a fan of DSBs (although I never recommend them to newbies or clueless folks).

And... I do believe that there can be desirable organisms in the living substrates that we keep/culture.

BUT... in the real world, our substrates (shallow or DSB) are frankly, deserts.

Most everyone stocks their displays too early and with the wrong kind of fishes. A majority of popular fishes kept in reef tanks will decimate the macroscopic life forms that we believe are or should be growing in our sand beds.

This is a benefit that I never subscribed too on DSBs. Its a joke. The biodiversity of an aquarium sand bed is weak at best.

Now having said that... I still find it useful to run living substrates.

but come on... lets be realistic about what a living substrate can do.

You get some microscopic activity. With a little effort, you can get some good natural nitrate reduction. And some tanks do indeed grow a few wonderful macroscopic organisms... various worms, some gastropods/snails, limpets... indeed some microcrustaceans.

But to speak of "biodiversity" to any appreciable extent in aquarium substrates is a weak argument.

I like living substrates (again, principally oolitic DSBs) just for aesthetic, buffering support of water chemistry, and very easy/efficient nitrate control.

in turn, I am aggressive about nutrient export (skimming, water changes) and have extraordinary water flow that hopes to even begin to come close to what we see on a reef.

As for flow with sand and issues/concerns of sand-storms/milky tanks etc.... again:

Horse-puckey!

The argument against using fine substrates because the water flow needed for animal health will disturb the matter is flawed. Ignorant at best, or just a cheap shot from the DSB-haters ;)

Its a simply matter of having the wrong kid of flow. Too many folks limit their effluents to just a few ports. So for big aquariums (say 100-200 gallons), to have 2-4 Tunze streamers, OM's, SQWDs, etc is producing a whole lot of water flow in some areas (wickedly unnatural laminar streams) and still leaves calm or dead spots in other areas.

For bare-bottomed displays, you can often get away with this kind of flow as it just bangs around and becomes turbulent. But with fine substrates you need diffused flow. And high volume, diffused flow does not(!) disturb sands and is frankly better for the tank regardless of the use of substrate or not.

So... with regard for "disturbing" a biodiversity in living substrates that I say is weak as it is, I will concede that the occasional sand stirring or gravel siphoning of a sand bed can me helpful and may be necessary for folks with living substrates.

Its a matter of having to "pay to play"

If you like the look of substrates and/or want some of the benefits they offer... AND are realistic about their limitations, then by all means ... enjoy.

I'll also add (a gross generalization here) that hardcore Acroporid keepers usually fare better with bare-bottomed displays, and soft coral/LPS keepers fare as well or better with living substrates.

Its not an one vs. another situation, nor is it a "DSB" good or bad, "Bare-bottom" good vs. bad, discussion.

These applications need to be finessed on an individual basis to serve the needs of your individual system.

kind regards to all,

Anthony
 
Anthony Calfo said:
So then you may wonder... well, what of all that life in the sand bed? The infuana, meiofauna, whatever-fauna? Aren't they growing, flourishing... recycling or somehow utilizing those nutrients?

Horse puckey!

Now wait... don't get me wrong. I AM a fan of DSBs (although I never recommend them to newbies or clueless folks).

And... I do believe that there can be desirable organisms in the living substrates that we keep/culture.

BUT... in the real world, our substrates (shallow or DSB) are frankly, deserts.

Most everyone stocks their displays too early and with the wrong kind of fishes. A majority of popular fishes kept in reef tanks will decimate the macroscopic life forms that we believe are or should be growing in our sand beds.

This is a benefit that I never subscribed too on DSBs. Its a joke. The biodiversity of an aquarium sand bed is weak at best.

Now having said that... I still find it useful to run living substrates.

but come on... lets be realistic about what a living substrate can do.

You get some microscopic activity. With a little effort, you can get some good natural nitrate reduction. And some tanks do indeed grow a few wonderful macroscopic organisms... various worms, some gastropods/snails, limpets... indeed some microcrustaceans.

But to speak of "biodiversity" to any appreciable extent in aquarium substrates is a weak argument.

Do you find it silly that folks replenish their "whatever-fauna"? Do you think that the occasional addition of new "critters" is beneficial to the aquarium? You also mention stirring of the substrate on occasion. What are the arguments against this? As mentioned, disturbing the fauna, but from your perspective, what benefits do you see for the occasional sand stir - what do you gain? Hope these questions make sense.

Thanks for the rant/advice/opinions Anthony!
 
the main issue, sand-stirring (or better yet - siphoning, not stirring, when possible) is simply to extend the life of the sand bed (by reducing accumulating solids/nutrients) so that we can enjoy the benefits of the sand bed (aesthetic or otherwise... buffer, NNR, whatever) that we set out to get in the first place.

As for re-seeding the sand bed periodically:
if the sand bed in question is without predation, as in refugia sans fishes/corals, then I think the inoculations are a fab idea.

But as for re-seeding a sand be in a (display) tank with fishes/corals that preyed the same or similar (seed) organisms into decimated populations in the first place... is beyond silly to me! :D It really is a waste in some ways, I believe. :p

For folks interested in culturing worms, amphipods, and other "sand" critters, please do so in refugia principally.
 
it seems as though a remote dsb would solve alot of the issues disscused like fish eating the important critters, or flow issues. you could stock the sand bed with whatever you wanted and nothing will ever get to it . it also seems it would be easier to pull maintinance on it and it wouldn't disturb the tank. you could also put in alot more sand and not have to worry about the visual. is 6 inches of sand realy considerd deep enough to reep all the benefits that are desired from a dsb? this thread is very interesting to me. a few years ago everyone was going dsb, now it seems as though they are avoided like the plauge. Mike showed me the remote dsb method and it seemed to make alot of sense. i was wondering if he still had it? there is alot of sand in the ocean and i don't think it should be overlooked what went wrong with dsb's
 
yep... very much agreed. Remote DSB ala refugia or even simple DSB bucket/bin is better. And six inches is more than enough for most desirable organisms/activities.

IMO... 3" is bare minimum... but I rarely go less than 6"
 
does this also depend on the size of the grain? the way i understand it is: the desireable critters take the waste that normally turns to nitrate and bring it down to the anaerobic zone where it is turned to nitrogen gas which slowly gets released and feeds our corals. is this somewhat correct? what went wrong with this method? did they develope a surplus of nitrogen and cause problems? i feel like i missed a page what can we do to maintain these properly? can they just be stirred every couple months to prevent problems. i am thinking of adding one
 
wwoouu this thread is teaching me a lot of things.
i have a little sand bed in my tank it's not that big, i believe 2", it used to be bigger but i had problems with cyano, so i got a powerhead and put it almost at the bottom, now the cyano its almost gone i also vacummed all the cyano, every water change i like stirring it and i can see my fishes eating stuff from the sand all the time, it gets really cloudy in there but after a while it gets clears again.
At night i can see tons of things under the sand and on top like amphipods, copepods, worms under the sand, its very interesting to see all these creatures moving at night :) .


But as for re-seeding a sand be in a (display) tank with fishes/corals that preyed the same or similar (seed) organisms into decimated populations in the first place... is beyond silly to me! It really is a waste in some ways, I believe.

i was just wondering why do you think its a waste to have all these critters in the display tank? :oops:
 
Well About TIME!!!!!!!!!!!! rofl. Biggest flaw of a dsb system is that those that originally advocated it was that they can inaccurate information and touted to be much more then it could possibly be. Anthony its great to see someone take a common sence approach to the use of sand substraights, this way folks at least have a chance. Good on you!

On the remote DSB, I had an arguement....discussion with Ron and he seemed to think the concept was a complete waste of time and defeted the purpose of using a dsb. I guess his reasoning was that you could not maintain the food input for it if it wasnt in the tank and would end up having to feed it, which would be working it backwards?

Loohunter
does this also depend on the size of the grain? the way i understand it is: the desireable critters take the waste that normally turns to nitrate and bring it down to the anaerobic zone where it is turned to nitrogen gas which slowly gets released and feeds our corals. is this somewhat correct? what went wrong with this method? did they develope a surplus of nitrogen and cause problems? i feel like i missed a page what can we do to maintain these properly? can they just be stirred every couple months to prevent problems. i am thinking of adding one
The concept of grain size has to do with the amount of surface area for bacteria to populate, so the finer the sand the more bacteria you can have in the bed. The whole system of a dsb is based on bacteria, the concept of sand stirrers was just to allow for migration of the biproducts to the lower depths of the bed.
Aerobic bacteria living in the upper region of the bed (well oxygenated area) do the nitrifing (as in turn ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate). Because of a close proximity to anerobic zone (oxygen reduced) it allows thier biproduct (nitrate) to be used by nitrate reducing bacteria which then produce various forms of nitrogen gas to be eventually be off gassed. That is basically a best case scenerio and what most DSB users are looking for the nitrogen gas is not used by any critters, it is the end of the line as the gas is made atmospheric. As with any bacterial system however thier are many enviromental conditions that play havic with the whole concept, and in most cases the nitrogen is converted to ammonium and then re cycled, but that is a by the case thing


Good thread Anthony!!


Mike
 
nitrogen-based versus carbon-based

Anthony - could you comment a bit on waste that is primarily nitrogen-based versus waste that is primarily carbon-based? My understanding is that the nitrogen-based waste (part of the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-nitrogen gas cycle) is not the real pitfall with substrates. Rather, it is the organic (carbon-based) waste that accumulates and converts (eventually) to CO2 at a much slower rate that really causes problems.
 
Gabriela - its not a waste to have the creatures in the bed, my friend (on the contrary... great of you can culture them). What I mean is that it is a waste to "re-seed" a sand bed as with $50, $100, etc "kits" of mere handfuls (if that) of new creatures that are supposedly going to revive your depleted sand beds. Please! If the sand bed is depleted from having a fishload over your DSB, what reason to we have to believe that another fistful thrown into the tank isn't just going to be a food treat?!?! :D Again... I do strongly favor remote DSBs that are sans predators like corals and fishes. It is a better way to culture such micro/macro-organisms.

Don... to be frankly honest, I don't know that I can competently answer your questions without looking back into my notes and cracking open a few books! The last thing I'd want to do for an intelligent and worthy question like yours is just spout off some anecdotal blabbler that may not be wholly founded in fact.

My serious guess is that our beloved Mojo can offer some valid insight here?
 
My serious guess is that our beloved Mojo can offer some valid insight here?
LOL man that teflon jacket is fitting really well :D
Anthony - could you comment a bit on waste that is primarily nitrogen-based versus waste that is primarily carbon-based? My understanding is that the nitrogen-based waste (part of the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-nitrogen gas cycle) is not the real pitfall with substrates. Rather, it is the organic (carbon-based) waste that accumulates and converts (eventually) to CO2 at a much slower rate that really causes problems.
Don always asks the really tough questions! :p This one is kind of a two parter, nitrogen first. In the nitrogen cycle thier are many different pathways, most people think that its a simple Ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and then to gas. Now ths is one pathways for sure, but only one of many, each of these pathways are controled by enviroments and other conditions. These varying conditions play havoc with the bacterias ability to produce enzymes that they need to do thier job. A standard example would be the presence of ammonia in the dsb, if thier it will not allow nitrate reducing bacteria to produce its enzyme and thus no nitrate reduction will occur, oxygen would be another common one. Now mother nature of coarse can deal with this by the ammount of diverse nitch bacterias it has to just take another route, which in the grand scheme and scale of the ocean works out just fine, but in a closed system with out recruitement and in a constant state of flux it doesnt help. So to answer the nitrogen question The ability to off gas nitrogen is usually lost very early in the dsb's life, what ends up happening is becase of the skewing and flux most of the nitrogen just get recycled or sunk.
As per carbon I wouldnt refer to it as a con for a dsb, I would look more to things such as the Phosphate cycle, sulfur cycle, biproduct enzymes, end product detritus....basically stuff that the sand bed system doesnt have a stratagy for or relies on algae's .


Mike
 
Anthony Calfo said:
What I mean is that it is a waste to "re-seed" a sand bed as with $50, $100, etc "kits" of mere handfuls (if that) of new creatures that are supposedly going to revive your depleted sand beds. Please! If the sand bed is depleted from having a fishload over your DSB, what reason to we have to believe that another fistful thrown into the tank isn't just going to be a food treat?!?! Again... I do strongly favor remote DSBs that are sans predators like corals and fishes. It is a better way to culture such micro/macro-organisms.

I thought diversity is important when it comes to a sandbeds functionality. I understand you advocate remote DSBs, however, if this isn't possible for some hobbyists then wouldn't re-seeding be a good thing? I imagine there is competition going on with the sand critters, so even without predation from fish, for example, wouldn't some critters deplete over time? If certain critters "reign" the sandbed, then diversity is at a minimum, which would not be healthy for the sandbed. My thinking is re-seeding would help to keep the diversity of fauna healthy, which would aid in the health of the bed.

With regards to the remote DSB - I follow this is a better way to culture the micro/macro organisms, but in order for a remote DSB to work at its fullest potential, wouldn't you need to get detritus and waste from the tank to settle there? (as in Mike/mojo's post about "feeding" the bed).....in order to keep the fauna alive, it needs a food source. If not set-up properly, then a remote DSB won't work right. :confused:
 
Nikki thier is no way on earth to keep the amount of fuana critters in a dsb, even with out preditation they will eventually succumb to the survival of the fittest. With preds present basically all you are doing is feeding an expensive food. The function of DSB critters is only thier to stir the sand, beyond that they have no purpose really. So adding a higher life form stirrer that would get eaten would make better sence. Something like a cuke, or gobies or stars??


Mike
 
mojoreef said:
The function of DSB critters is only thier to stir the sand, beyond that they have no purpose really. So adding a higher life form stirrer that would get eaten would make better sence. Something like a cuke, or gobies or stars??
Mike

Do fingers count?? :) I've heard of some DSB reefers that comb/stir their beds with their fingers. I guess it would depend on how often the bed needed stirring....


BTW... Great thread. Thanks Anthony & MIke.
 
exactly (thanks Mike)... this is THE misconception about sand beds. I am (still) not arguing that biodiversity isn't good. Of course its good.

But... its not even remotely possible or likely even in the short term.

Re-seeding is overwhelmingly not possible in the short or long term... short of removing the fishes that decimated the biodiversity in the first place.

So this all really speaks to having a realistic expectation for what a DSB can really do.

I for one have never asked or expected my DSBs to do anything more than 1) look pretty to me (aesthetics principally!), 2) offer some "buffering" support to water quality (dissolution of aragonite for as much or as little as thats worth) and 3) give me some another vector in which I might derive natural nitrate reduction.

Coupled with my personal preference for light fish loads, heavy water and very aggressive nutrient export (weekly water changes, weekly carbon exchanges, two or more skimmers... and sometimes vegetable filters/refugia too)... DSBs work for me.

But for more folks (typically) that stock their new DSB tanks in the first 4 months with fishes, overfeed in time, do not understand or push their skimmers, have inadequate water flow... and really are light on partial water exchanges, then DSBs are difficult to say the least.

I am a fan of DSBs, truly so. But mostly for aesthetics... and never for beginners.
 
Oooh... big stipulation for my above comment: (again) I'm referring to DSBs in the display tank only.

In refugia, they have more benefits.
 
Yes, great thread, I love substrate discussions and am eager to see where this one leads... :D

Anthony, I'd like to go back to some of your earlier points in the orgional post if you don't mind. On the siphoning of substrates (I'd like to use a DSB composed of oolitic aragonite like my own as a focus here), do you feel that it is important to carry out this practice from the very beginning of the life of the substrate? I have a 5 year old DSB, aside from the occasional hole punched in it by burrowing fish or tank maintenance, generally it does not get disturbed deeply. I have moved the tank twice, leaving the DSB in place, it definately got disturbed then... :D, (I felt I had better add that fact.) However, at 5 years old now, 2 years and 9 months undisturbed in its current location, I'm afraid of what kind of toxic nightmare I'd unleash on my tank if I were to go and try and clean it out. Would you recommend even attempting this with an older, reletively undisturbed sandbed?

You went into some points concerning flow and peoples misconceptions and inporper use of it...I believe I understand the concept you are getting at...you are talking about a scenerio where you have a high amount of turnover in the tank, but one that is as equally proportioned throughout the tank as possible, to avoid excess force focused in certain areas and reduce turbulence as much as possible, correct? Logically, a situation like this would hopefully create a situation where one could use a very fine substrate and not have the proverbial "sand storm". I wonder, however, if this very same condition that helps create a situation where fine sand will remain intact might not also create a condition where "dead spots" of accumulated wastes are promoted? I would think a degree of turbulence througout the tank would be a good thing, as the randomly shifting flow and force patterns would bhe more likely to reach these areas and reduce waste accumulation on areas of the substrate...please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the concept here...

Great thread everybody! :D

MikeS
 
good questions MikeS...

yes, in fact... I have almost never disturbed any of my own sand beds. Its not necessary when the bioload is light and, more importantly, water flow is finessed in such a way as to always keep the majority of particulates in suspension.

Alas... most folks fail to do this successfully, and as such... I will concede that the occasional sand siphoning may be helpful to extract significant amounts of solids/nutrients periodically as needed. Its a patch. A fix for a flawed application for many folks.

I have always used teed/loop manifolds for my water flow over DSBs, and as such... never had problems with sand storms. It is my recommendation in kind.
 
i am so happy to see this thread finally go somewhere. i have heard about tanks dying cuz of the surpluss of gas leaching out is this true? also what about mud and like a mangrove situation. do you achieve the same kind of results with a mud filter
 
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