Skimming and the numbers

Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum

Help Support Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum:

mojoreef

Reef Keeper
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Messages
7,530
Location
Sumner
Alright I have been getting some questions from folks about skimmers, how they what and what the principles are so I figured we'd start a thread. SO first off this is not about any Skimmer just the rules about it so lets try not to turn it into that.

So Skimming The concept behind it as most folks have already figured out is to remove protiens and similar out of your tank water. Protien moles attach themselves to water moles so the first part of skimming is to break that bond. A skimmer does this by basically beating up the water moles with air bubbles, so water moles getting bombarded by air bubbles which mechanically de couples them. Part B of the process is then reattaching those potien moles to a clean air bubble. So the concept is to have as many small bubbles (200micron?) available (same concept as sanbed surface area) for the protiens to attach to and then drift up the skimmer and be removed, this is the chemical reaction. So pretty simple stuff right? Well of course not!!! The way the above mentioned works is by following a set of rules/laws, these laws apply to every skimmer regardless of brand so it give you the oppertunity to do the math and figure out if a skimmer truely works and how good. So lets play.

First rule: Flow rate
Flow rate through the skimmer. The formula for figureing it out is Hours=9.2 purity coefficient (which means that 99.9% of the water has been treated (gallons/gph) so this formula gives you an idea on how to see how many times a day the tank water runs through the skimmer in order to treat all the tank water completely. So an example of say my skimmer would be:I have a pump pushing 600 gph and my tank has about 1000 gallons of water and I want to have a treatment of 9.2 coefficient (which means 99.99% of the water is treated in the tank). Or (1000/600)9.2=15.3 So all my water will hae seen the skimmer every 15.3 hours. This formula works for all equipment like skimmers, uv, ozone and so on.

2nd Rule: Bombardment rate
Which is the number of times an assending air bubble hits a descending water drop with in the skimmer. This concept deals with the time the tank water spends in the skimmer and the diameter of the skimmer. Ok the formula for figuring this out is Bombardment rate (R) = the dwell time of the water/the dwell time of the air. So an example: my skimmer holds 30 gallons of water and is feed by that 600 gph so that means that the water completely passes through the skimmer every 180 seconds So my dwell time for the water is 180sec. The dwell time for air is a long formula (like about a page of math) and I go cross eyeed just looking at it so here is my simpler method. I turned the air pump super low so thier was only a few bubbles in the skimmer. With the bubbles coming in and hitting the water flow in the skimmer I timed it out at a very approximate but it came out to 12 seconds, so my bombardment rate is 180/12= 15 bombardment rate. 10 is concidered to be perfect.

Rule 3: Volume of air
This is the amount of air as compared to the amount of water in the skimmer. The forumla is that the air volume should be 20% of the total water volume. So if you have a skimmer that holds 5 gallons of water, you should only have 1 gallon of air in thier. If you have more air then this figure in your skimmer the bubbles will join togehter and be to large and thus will not hold as much of the protiens/organics on their surface. Also it will reduce your bombardment rate as thier wont be as many bubbles hitting the water moles. An easy way to figure out what your percentage is, is to run the skimmer normal with air being injected (or however you get air into the skimmer) and make a mark on the skimmer body with some tape. Then kill the air and make another mark, the water level should go down the cylinder by 20%

Rule 4: Configuration.
The injection points for both water and air are also critical for the skimmer to work efficiently. Example of this would be, if the water enters the top of the skimmer and exits the bottom and that your air enters the bottom and leave via the top, it would mean that all water must pass through the air bubbles in order to leave the skimmer. This method is the best. If the water and the air are injected at the same point, then your bombardment rate is reduced as the air bubble will travel with the same water mole all the way to its exit, thus it only hits a few water moles instead of many. Now I know some are going to get their undies in a not on this one (Skimmy I see that strained look :dance:) So I will say that the water and air can be injected through the same point, but I have yet to seen the math to prove its not less effective or as good.

Rule 5: Contact time.
Since the function of a protien skimmer is to first mechanically strip the protien/organics from the water mole and then to chemically attract the protien/organic to the surface of the air bubble, it is important for the organic/protien to spend as much time in contact with the air bubbles. Now with some protiens it take a long time for them to actually bond to the surface of the bubbles, so the more the better. We have to remember that some protiens dont want to let go of their bond and thus some can take minutes to be mechanically seperated.

Ok those are the basic laws of skimming, but their are some other thoughts that should be concidered. A big one is the amount of violence with in the skimmer, if the water and air mixture is so violent, then the air bubbles will break and will thus release their chemical bond on the protien mole and put you back to square one. Or they will join together and form a bigger bubble which will then reduce the surface area available for protiens to attach.
Another is the what I call the freight train effect. This is where the [ump is so big and moves water through the skimmer so fast that it basically acts as a frieght train and takes much more out of your water then just the protiens we are looking to remove.

And the the fun fact!?!?!:rockon: Surfacants, these are compounds that lower the surface tension of liquid and thus allow those protiens to attach to the air bubble and to themselves much more easily. When you feed your aquarium or you sick your hands in the aquairum you will see the foam in your skimmer start to disappear or reduce alot. The oils from our hands and the foods we feed react with the surfacants and render them done.

hope it helps

Mojo

.
 
Thanks for supplying the info as promised. I will try to apply this math to my set up and see if I can come out with some answers.
 
There you go again, popping up and posting well considered, rational posts to benefit all.....

Yea I hate when that happens :becky:

Danno great to see/hear you again

Mojo
 
Thanks mike ! I have been trying to check out some of your threads that you were talking about
everyday at lunch. Thanks again . I will set up a day with you for my quiz. :)
 
Rule 5: Contact time.
Since the function of a protien skimmer is to first mechanically strip the protien/organics from the water mole and then to chemically attract the protien/organic to the surface of the air bubble, it is important for the organic/protien to spend as much time in contact with the air bubbles. Now with some protiens it take a long time for them to actually bond to the surface of the bubbles, so the more the better. We have to remember that some protiens dont want to let go of their bond and thus some can take minutes to be mechanically seperated.


Mojo

Ok, so I have a question related to skimmers that are quite common right now, and also my skimmer specifically regarding contact time. It seems a few years ago, the taller the skimmer, the higher the rating. Now some of the skimmers we see are far larger in diameter but not nearly as tall. Does this affect contact time, and also does one design allow the moles to attach to clean bubbles as opposed to the other?

The second part or the question is this, I have a fairly large diameter skimmer (msx250) which is a short and fatty skimmer. I had a 6" neck attached to my collection cup to in theory increase contact time. Is this as efficient since the additional height is post taper of the neck?

Brett
 
Alright I have been getting some questions from folks about skimmers, how they what and what the principles are so I figured we'd start a thread. SO first off this is not about any Skimmer just the rules about it so lets try not to turn it into that.

So Skimming The concept behind it as most folks have already figured out is to remove protiens and similar out of your tank water. Protien moles attach themselves to water moles so the first part of skimming is to break that bond. A skimmer does this by basically beating up the water moles with air bubbles, so water moles getting bombarded by air bubbles which mechanically de couples them. Part B of the process is then reattaching those potien moles to a clean air bubble. So the concept is to have as many small bubbles (200micron?) available (same concept as sanbed surface area) for the protiens to attach to and then drift up the skimmer and be removed, this is the chemical reaction. So pretty simple stuff right? Well of course not!!! The way the above mentioned works is by following a set of rules/laws, these laws apply to every skimmer regardless of brand so it give you the oppertunity to do the math and figure out if a skimmer truely works and how good. So lets play.

First rule: Flow rate
Flow rate through the skimmer. The formula for figureing it out is Hours=9.2 purity coefficient (which means that 99.9% of the water has been treated (gallons/gph) so this formula gives you an idea on how to see how many times a day the tank water runs through the skimmer in order to treat all the tank water completely. So an example of say my skimmer would be:I have a pump pushing 600 gph and my tank has about 1000 gallons of water and I want to have a treatment of 9.2 coefficient (which means 99.99% of the water is treated in the tank). Or (1000/600)9.2=15.3 So all my water will hae seen the skimmer every 15.3 hours. This formula works for all equipment like skimmers, uv, ozone and so on.

2nd Rule: Bombardment rate
Which is the number of times an assending air bubble hits a descending water drop with in the skimmer. This concept deals with the time the tank water spends in the skimmer and the diameter of the skimmer. Ok the formula for figuring this out is Bombardment rate (R) = the dwell time of the water/the dwell time of the air. So an example: my skimmer holds 30 gallons of water and is feed by that 600 gph so that means that the water completely passes through the skimmer every 180 seconds So my dwell time for the water is 180sec. The dwell time for air is a long formula (like about a page of math) and I go cross eyeed just looking at it so here is my simpler method. I turned the air pump super low so thier was only a few bubbles in the skimmer. With the bubbles coming in and hitting the water flow in the skimmer I timed it out at a very approximate but it came out to 12 seconds, so my bombardment rate is 180/12= 15 bombardment rate. 10 is concidered to be perfect.

Rule 3: Volume of air
This is the amount of air as compared to the amount of water in the skimmer. The forumla is that the air volume should be 20% of the total water volume. So if you have a skimmer that holds 5 gallons of water, you should only have 1 gallon of air in thier. If you have more air then this figure in your skimmer the bubbles will join togehter and be to large and thus will not hold as much of the protiens/organics on their surface. Also it will reduce your bombardment rate as thier wont be as many bubbles hitting the water moles. An easy way to figure out what your percentage is, is to run the skimmer normal with air being injected (or however you get air into the skimmer) and make a mark on the skimmer body with some tape. Then kill the air and make another mark, the water level should go down the cylinder by 20%

Rule 4: Configuration.
The injection points for both water and air are also critical for the skimmer to work efficiently. Example of this would be, if the water enters the top of the skimmer and exits the bottom and that your air enters the bottom and leave via the top, it would mean that all water must pass through the air bubbles in order to leave the skimmer. This method is the best. If the water and the air are injected at the same point, then your bombardment rate is reduced as the air bubble will travel with the same water mole all the way to its exit, thus it only hits a few water moles instead of many. Now I know some are going to get their undies in a not on this one (Skimmy I see that strained look :dance:) So I will say that the water and air can be injected through the same point, but I have yet to seen the math to prove its not less effective or as good.

Rule 5: Contact time.
Since the function of a protien skimmer is to first mechanically strip the protien/organics from the water mole and then to chemically attract the protien/organic to the surface of the air bubble, it is important for the organic/protien to spend as much time in contact with the air bubbles. Now with some protiens it take a long time for them to actually bond to the surface of the bubbles, so the more the better. We have to remember that some protiens dont want to let go of their bond and thus some can take minutes to be mechanically seperated.

Ok those are the basic laws of skimming, but their are some other thoughts that should be concidered. A big one is the amount of violence with in the skimmer, if the water and air mixture is so violent, then the air bubbles will break and will thus release their chemical bond on the protien mole and put you back to square one. Or they will join together and form a bigger bubble which will then reduce the surface area available for protiens to attach.
Another is the what I call the freight train effect. This is where the [ump is so big and moves water through the skimmer so fast that it basically acts as a frieght train and takes much more out of your water then just the protiens we are looking to remove.

And the the fun fact!?!?!:rockon: Surfacants, these are compounds that lower the surface tension of liquid and thus allow those protiens to attach to the air bubble and to themselves much more easily. When you feed your aquarium or you sick your hands in the aquairum you will see the foam in your skimmer start to disappear or reduce alot. The oils from our hands and the foods we feed react with the surfacants and render them done.

hope it helps

Mojo

.
Great write up Mike. Sorry I missed this one. It would have helped a lot in my new build.

A few questions,

1) I thought it was an electrical charge that attracted the proteins, not a chemical reaction.

2) About contact time, even if the air and water are introduced at the same point, wouldn't contact time actually occur in the entire skimmer except on the surface where the bubbles pop and fall into the cup? In my skimmer builds I direct the flow inside to cause an up and down effect, like a rolling effect extending dwell time. This is not a violent type of action, more gentile in the rolling within the chamber.

I have been telling people for years to keep their hands out of the tank so the surface tension is not disturbed. I am happy to see you added that :)

I have more questions but will stop now for discussion.

Frank
 
I 2nd that on the great write up Mike, really like how you can put it into layman terms. Now if we can just train yours thumbs to not get in the way of your typing :biggrin1:

Cheers, Todd
 
1) I thought it was an electrical charge that attracted the proteins, not a chemical reaction.
I heard some folks talking about that once, I have to admit I never really investigated it I thought was someone trying to justify a skimmer that didnt follow the rules. A per the reaction, it is a chemical one to bond the protiens an the surfacants, to release the protiens from the water molecule its kind of a mechanical reaction throught bombardment.

About contact time, even if the air and water are introduced at the same point, wouldn't contact time actually occur in the entire skimmer except on the surface where the bubbles pop and fall into the cup
Yes and no. YOu have to look at the process Frank. Prior to getting a protien to attach to a clean air bubble you must first break the bond with the water molecule. So in your Beckett skimmer you could say that the seperating of the protien from the water occurs in the injection area, so now picture that in your mind the water is not passing through the air bubbles but rather eithers and travels with it. So do you get the bombardment, yes i am sure their is some but not really as effective.
On the contact time in the neck or the foam column can not be counted towards contact time as y the time it gets to that point the surface area is already saturated with hopefully protiens. You need the actual contact time to happen in the mixing chamber where you have raw water and clean air bubbles. That contact time is simple the ammount of time the water stays in the skimmer while the air bubbles are bombarding and then attaching protiens.

Good luck Todd

Mike
 
Back
Top