The Mature Aquarium -- Discussion

[NC2WA]

Lee,

Are these times cumulative? Meaning if I am at step 5, 13 weeks have passed (3wks from step 1 + two wks from step 2 + 4wks from step 3 + 4wks from step 4) ??

What kind of time is needed? These times relate to the above steps:
1. Two to three weeks.
2. Variable from two weeks. Fully cured LR is assumed here.
3. One month. Cleanup crew is first life after LR.
4. One month. Mobile inverts may be added.
5. From this point the marine system is really maturing
6. Two months. First fish, then additional fish every 6 weeks thereafter if all is well; hardy sessile invertebrates)
7. Two months. Marine System near full maturity.
8. Ongoing. Sensitive marine life.

thanks
kirk

 

[ecobalance]

what?

It's a real good thing you don't install aquariums for a living. i have to say that is the best example of what happens when you spend too much time reading about doing and no time actually doing.It looks like something that came straight out of fish weekly december 1972.So much is missing from your ''article'',.like are we talking about live rock that is un cured?or sand that was found in the back yard?This is the 21 century,and the biggest problem i see with young hobbiest is the limmited amount of up to date info available vs the mass abundance of crap that has been coppied out of a book from some one who coppied it and so on and so on,and so on.What this creates is a parinoid new aquarist who is scarde of his own aquarium,and afraid to enjoy his new found fun.Yes we should encourage to go the route of ''steady wins the race'',but that should be focused on pre planning,compatibility,and what a healthy specimen should look like.,now complete mumbo jumbo about yet another thing to worry about.I think if i go much further with this [which i would love to do]i'll just end up creating a mob of book worms with little to no experance out for blood.So watch your aquarium and learn from it.research before you buy it,and take full advantage of what the 21 century has to offer.The worst that could happen is you actually might enjoy it.You will never have a work of art that is like no other if you only do what is safe and guaranteed. Attached photo is day two after set up,with cured live rock,live sand,and quaranteened fish.

 

[ecobalance]

The above photo was taken in november,and i will follow up with a current one next time i go to empty the skimmer collector.As of last week there has been only two casualities,due to suicide.

 

[leebca]

ecobalance,

The information I've provided is the way I've successfully set up marine aquariums (more than 300 now) in the 36 years I've been doing it. I've never read the article you are referring to. Since I've adopted this plan my systems have had no disease nor fish deaths post quarantine from disease or water quality problems.

I'm glad I am not setting up aquariums for a living. I find there are too many who have others setup their aquarium because they treat marine systems like a piece of furniture.

If you continue to use an abusive tone and fowl language I will ask and if necessary enforce preventing you from posting in this Forum. I want to keep the tenements of a Forum -- a place to respectfully exchange opinions, ideas, and information. You have the right to your own ideas and opinions, but not the right to misbehave here.

 

[DonW]

I think 6 or 7 months is very reasonable. Alot of all of this just depends on the hobbiest and how many mistakes he/she makes in the steps listed above. Some may get away with a month sooner and others may end up being a year later but I think Lees system is a good initial goal or plan, what ever you choose call it.

Don

 

[leebca]

Thanks Don.

Much depends upon the LR and it condition. The process can be somewhat shortend with the optimizing of the LR and attention by the aquarist.

 

[DonW]

Thanks Don.

Much depends upon the LR and it condition. The process can be somewhat shortend with the optimizing of the LR and attention by the aquarist.

I also think the key word here is aquarist. Just owning the equipment and following the plan isnt going to work for everyone. Most if not all folks new to the hobby will have setbacks, even in this well laid out plan. Knowing that up front will make the entire process less painful.
We all encounter bad advice, bad equipment and even lousy LR but mostly bad advice. Following bad advice will cause more setbacks to the new aquarist than anything. This is a sound plan to follow.

Good post Lee
Don

 

[james734]

I agree. I think this is very good and helpful information. Looking back on this time line with my tank this sound pretty close to what my actually time line was. Mine may have been a week so sooner, but still pretty close to it. This will before good information for someone new to read. Hopefully before they even start the system. Reading this, one would hope someone could see this is not a hobby for the quick results type of people.


Again, Nice post Lee and very informative like most of your's are.

 

[Damsel13]

I have a very low tech system (one of those "mono aquariums") that I was given. Even with some prime live rock and H.O.B. skimmer and about 192? watts PC I have to go very slow.
My tank will have no new fish but I would like to add a couple more soft corals although this will mean more carbon changes.

I have a question... someone over on wwm suggested I have something else in a bag in my mini-sump I had never heard of it. I have heard of lots of things ...it was not a type of carbon...it may have been a phosphate remover. Not one I have heard of. I think he said for my system it would help take solids out of the water? but I could be wrong (TDS)?
Can anyone help sorry to hijack.
Let me just finish up by saying I have had no fish deaths except for 1 blue-green chromis eaten by SOMETHING by following a timeline such as leeB is suggesting.

 

[Reeferdude]

I think the timeline is reasonable and definately good reading for the newbie. I waited over a year before I put anything but crabs in my current tank. All my rock except 3 or 4 pieces were hold overs kept dormant for nearly 2 years (bleach white). Still to this day, nearly 3 years later I've put very little in the system. It's amazing what life comes from what appears to be dead rock. If a person has the patience, watching something grow from nothing is so awesome.

 

[ecobalance]

Ok

I'm not sure where the foul language was,and i was by no means personaly attacking anyone,but the fact is if you set up a marine aquarium with mature live rock[from a decent lfs]that will sell its rock that is in its system,live sand,either out of a bag or from a trusted system,or both,and use nitrifiying bacteria of a quality nature,than you basicly are doing the same as moveing a system from one place to another[minus the quanity of amphapods,copeapods and micro fauna,that will multiply rapidly if you don't introduce hermits and snails as your first residents,]which will slow this reproduction process emencely.In my oppinion by waiting as long as you say to introduce fish,you are depriveing the benifical bacteria of the ammonia source needed to mature a tank.I sinceraly appoligize if you took my reply as a personal attack.I just think there are better ways to set up an aquarium,and be able to enjoy the experance with out being affraid of every step you take.The reason suppliments and mirricle cures are a multi million dollar bussiness is because un experienced aquarist look to the fast fix the first time their ph drops or detect ammonia from a test kit they don't understand in the first place.In my oppinion most aquarist who run in to problems on their first set up do so because of their inability to leave well enough alone,and lack of understanding what a new aquarium needs in means of outside help.''NOTHING''.....This secret cycle you talk of is just another thing that the avarage person setting up an aquarium for enjoyment doesn't need to know about.Anyone in this hobie will go much further,and experience much more enjoyment if they just leave those suppliments and test kits on the shelf and learn what healthy live stock look like,and emphisize on keeping salinty levels stable and water changes a new found religon.More new aquarist screw up perfectly healthy new systems due to their enexperance in testing and adding than any thing else.So if i sounded up set about your thread its because i am a firm believer in makeing this hobie pain and worry free and don't think people need one more thing that they can't control anyway to worry about.Set up 10 aquariums side by side exactly the same way and you will find they will all present their own problems and mature rates,and all will eventually balance out on their own if just givven the chance.''PARINOIA WILL DESTROY YA''........hope you forgive me for my tonein my last reply,no disrespect intended.Don't worry be happy

 

[azgard1]

Preparing an aquarium is not so simple as throwing a living chunk of coral reef into a glass box and expecting it to continue to properly maintain life.

The reaction of the once free living organisms now have to adapt, if they are able, to an abundance of man made support apparatuses. This adaption takes considerable time if done properly. It is done in step by step stages with observation for the proper development. Several stages are required each building on the previous to create a stable life sustaining environment.

Lee, I have found your information provided is very much in line with my personal experience. I see nothing fearsome in your information, I only wish I had known this type of information long ago. What I like most about your contributions is, it's always fresh and up to date, yet tempered with years of personal experience.

 

[leebca]

ecobalance,

Perhaps you didn't read the process closely. You are right that the introduction of ammonia is important, but it doesn't have to be fish. In the process I presented, ammonia is introduced as soon as the LR is put into the aquarium. Then that ammonia is increased by adding food to the system to feed the LR inhabitants and the introduction of the clean up crew.

By the time the fish enter, the organic feeding bacteria have stabilized and the export of nutrients and import of nutrients has moved towards equilibrium.

You have also indicated a concern about the time. But the process I have written includes ranges not fixed times. The above average time in the ranges listed is about 7 months. On the low side the addition of the first fish can occur in 2 months. The next step doesn't go forward until the hobbyist can see improvement in the system, beyond test kit results. I make it clear that this depends on the aquarist and the quality of the live rock.

You indicate that 'mature live rock' comes from a 'decent LFS.' I believe that maturity isn't as important as the life on that rock; nor does that maturity necessarily equate to no die-off when put into a new marine system. The starting marine system quality has great variability to it, heavily related to the quality of the LR and the aquarist. With regards to a 'decent LFS' I don't connect that with the quality of LR they have. I was an LFS owner. Most buy what they can get and what they can get is often picked over by wholesalers and those LFSs who drive to the wholesaler to pick and choose the rock they want. The vast majority of LFSs get the leftovers. They may be 'decent' but this doesn't mean they have good LR.

I personally believe that packaged live sand is way over sold. As a microbiologist I can assure people that the bacteria attached to packaged 'live sand' has entered into a kind of metabolic stasis, since they are not being fed. When put into a marine system, they remain in this state until Mother Nature deems it appropriate for them to become active. But, the new bacteria entering the aquarium (like the US Marines: from land, sea, and air) are just as likely to become metabolically active when the 'live sand' bacteria become active. I think it is pretty much a waste of money to pay for bacteria that are in the air, just because they are on packaged sand. If I set up my 700 gallon system with live sand, I'd be bankrupt. Yet I can still get to adding fish at about the same time I could with live sand.

The significant boost in time can be achieved not by adding packaged live sand, but by adding live sand from a mature aquarium (never having been packaged).

 

[NC2WA]

Ecobalance,

<Playing devil's advocate here>....this is by no means an attack on you..just like a good healthy debate..

"In my oppinion most aquarist who run in to problems on their first set up do so because of their inability to leave well enough alone,and lack of understanding what a new aquarium needs in means of outside help.''NOTHING''.....This secret cycle you talk of is just another thing that the avarage person setting up an aquarium for enjoyment doesn't need to know about.Anyone in this hobie will go much further,and experience much more enjoyment if they just leave those suppliments and test kits on the shelf and learn what healthy live stock look like,and emphisize on keeping salinty levels stable and water changes a new found religon.More new aquarist screw up perfectly healthy new systems due to their enexperance in testing and adding than any thing else."

The problem with the below statemenet, is if a novice reefers follows your steps AND a problem does occur, he/she will not know how to properly diagnose AND solve their problem becuase they do not have the basic understanding of how a marine system works. I believe this is the BIG point that Lee was making. (Well, at least this is what I took from it). I have been in this hobby close to 10 years, and I am glad I learned the "old school" way of knowing of to properly set up a tank. I am in the midst of setting up a 375 gallon tank, and I only have 4 fish (2 cinnamon clownfish and 2 orange diamondback sand sifting gobies). It is killing me not to stock this tank, YES; however I know from basic principles that my LR is not mature enough to warrant the overstocking of fish. Time AND Patience are needed here. (another point that Lee was making). I do feel that a reefer needs to know the importance of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. (which I feel the reefer that you would have set up your tank is missing this information).

Whether or not they own a test kit is irrevelant (in my opinion); what they do with that information and how they act on that information is the important part. Leave the test kit in the store is fine with me, most LFS test ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates for FREE. I would agree with you that most new reefers screw up a good system primarily because they do NOT know the basics on how a marine system is suppose to work and the cycles it goes thru. Again, how can someone learn the basic cycles of a marine system by "moving" cured LR, live sand, and water with good parameters in a system???

Peace out..
Kirk

 

[ecobalance]

o well

I'm sure not makeing any new frends here lol,but i dont understand how following Lee's directions is gonna make any differance on ''if something goes wrong''in the aquarist will know how to fix it.Thats besides the point.Furthermore,if every aquarium you have ever set up was done following these guidelines,than you really have nothing to compare your results to.So with that said i will gracefully bow to the ''moderator''and accept defeat,and continue setting up aquarium's one after another with no fear ,no guidelines,and use my star polyps,ziniya,and macro algaes as a warning flag to when things are a mis.I will continue to put puffers and shrimp together in harmony[almost all the time]in every reef tank i build,and will always experament mixing species that are not recomended.And in the end i will know that every one is a one of a kind.And if i get that call from that person who wants a full blown reef tank with Angels,, puffers,a grouper,and a Harlincan Tusk,and o ya a Sea horse,and they want it up and running for their big party this weekend.My answer will be ''50% down and 50% when i'm done...................''what can be done with less is done with more in vane'' So don't fear the nitrogen cycle,and don't always take the safe and tested route because that's the boreing route,and you will end up with a copy of a copy.

 

[Scooterman]

Don I think I see your point, things have changed & these days you can do things that at one time wasn't possible but you have to be a little more experienced to really know that & what you can & can't do, understanding what happens & how things work takes time for most, maybe you can grab it quicker, read to ton more whatever but I think your missing Lee's initial point, this is designed to help someone that is coming into this with no real experience in marine aquariums, to help them learn what is going on etc, he isn't saying that this is the law & there aren't exceptions, we know that at times we can do things because of our experience quicker, easier etc. So with that in mind maybe start an advanced thread & you can get another good topic going but with a different purpose, being clear that this isn't for beginners. One last thing, I bet Lee didn't do any of his tanks the exact same way, that just doesn't happen IMO, we continually learn & through that change our ways, ideas or how things are done, that part I agree we do have to change things from when things were done years ago to better our newcomers chances but not necessary the instant tank per say!

 

[Damsel13]

I think you can do things differently...with lots and lots of money...and the newest tech stuff and someone who understands how to keep the sump from overflowing EVER :badgrin: and that is my last position on this.

Thank you for reading.
Have a great day!

 

[DonW]

I followed almost exactly the same sort of advice from the shop that got me started in the hobby. Their tanks looked great, they had many commercial accounts. I have to say they cost me alot of money, their commercial accounts dissapeared and so so did they.
Setting up tanks for others is a completely different game than a hobbiest setting up their own tank. Most of the work is done well in advance so that the company can give instant gratification to it customers. Its very common to see a tank go up overnight but what you dont see is the work and time it took behind the scenes. I know a guy that sets up tanks for a living. He keeps his LR fully cured in display type tanks. He keeps water parameters perfect and treat the LR tanks like a reef. His fish are in a QT. When he get a order to set up a tank he can have it up and running overnight. I really doubt he would concider this a overnight process, but his customer get instant gratification.
Bottom line that is not the real world. We cannot get LR that is ready to go. Our fish dont come from a qt and we dont get instant gratification.

Don

 

[Maxx]

i dont understand how following Lee's directions is gonna make any differance on ''if something goes wrong''in the aquarist will know how to fix it.Furthermore,if every aquarium you have ever set up was done following these guidelines,than you really have nothing to compare your results to.

Could you please clarify? Cause it sounds like you're stating that unless you screw it up at least once, you wont know how to fix it when things do go wrong in the future. What do you mean by the last sentence I copy/pasted? Do you mean that by following Lee's guidelines you wont have a bad experiance to compare against? If so....uh.....thats whole point.

i will gracefully bow to the ''moderator''and accept defeat,and continue setting up aquarium's one after another with no fear ,no guidelines,and use my star polyps,ziniya,and macro algaes as a warning flag to when things are a mis.I will continue to put puffers and shrimp together in harmony[almost all the time]in every reef tank i build,and will always experament mixing species that are not recomended.And in the end i will know that every one is a one of a kind.And if i get that call from that person who wants a full blown reef tank with Angels,, puffers,a grouper,and a Harlincan Tusk,and o ya a Sea horse,and they want it up and running for their big party this weekend.My answer will be ''50% down and 50% when i'm done...................''what can be done with less is done with more in vane'' don't fear the nitrogen cycle,and don't always take the safe and tested route because that's the boreing route,and you will end up with a copy of a copy.

Are you intending to come off as someone who is only in the hobby for the money w/o regard for the animals in your care? Because thats how you're coming across in this post.

Like DonW stated there is a huge difference between setting up a tank as a hobbyist, and employing a service to set up and maintain the tank.

You need to learn to walk before you run.

Lee's post is geared towards the beginning hobbyist, (who may or may not have a good handle on the best way to start up a tank), not the experianced reefer. You talk about paying attention to the animals in your systems tell lwhen something is off...Hey great. I do the same thing. The difference is that I know what normal behavior is for my animals, based on years of experiance. How is someone who doesnt have years of experiance...(setting up their first tank maybe?) supposed to know what normal behavior is or how things can be "made better" when they get out of line?

Lee's intent, and the intent of all us here, is to give board members and visitors alike, the best chance for success in this hobby. Some of it is altruistic and just based on the desire to help people. But I'm very much concerned about this hobby being seriously regulated in the upcoming years. So its in my best interests, (and in the best interests of all the animals we keep) to make sure that everyone who comes here gets the best possible advice and help to be ultimately successful in this hobby.

Your post sounds alot like its advocating playing fast and loose w/ the "rules" of the hobby. I will admit, that under certain circumstances, (which were not the subject of this thread), it is possible to "bend" some of the "rules". But if you dont know what you're doing, you're most likely going to fail, and kill all the critters in the tank that you just spent alot of money on. The "rules" (which Lee is attempting to help new comers to the hobby understand) are guidelines that have been developed after decades of experiance. They are proven. Your suggestions and the way you appear to do business can work...if you know what you're doing. The beginning hobbyist, by defination, does not know what they are doing.

This hobby has come a long way in the last 10 years. I personally attribute alot of the success with the internet and online boards and forums like this one. Places where people from all over the world can share success and failure and learn what works and what doesnt. Yes, if you dont push the envelope, and risk failure, you wont every improve or better the hobby. But there are ways to push the limits and increase chances of success.

Thats what we're here for.

Like DonW said, some people who employ a service to set up and maintain tanks get instant results. But those "instant" results that are long term successful, are the result of the service pretty much doing what Lee has described, before the tank has been set up. They've let the liverock cure, they've QT'd the critters they plan on putting in the tank. They are doing all of the hard/boring work early and behind the scenes. And they know what they are doing.

Nick

 

[seahawkone]

Lee Great info wish I would have gotten it 12yrs ago when I started. For someone new to this hobby lucky enough to find this forum read your info [they be way ahead]. As for solving there problems it's always research and they will find plenty of help here. Seahawk