The problem with DSBs

[Paul B]

Here is some new research as to why some DSBs still have high nitrates.
It was written By Bob Goemans who is a friend of mine. I spoke to him about the article and also about why my tank which is very old, dirty, over fed and runs with a RUGF does not have nitrate issues.
It is an interesting article but the last page has the jist of it and is all you really need to read but feel free to read the entire thing.
It seems that there are two different types of bacteria that inhabit the lower reaches of a DSB and one of them may turn turn nitrogen gas back to nitrates or ammonium.

Have fun
http://www.instantocean.com/uploade...nowledge/SeaScope/Past/SS_Vol23_Fall_2007.pdf

 

[Scooterman]

Yup they are limited but this is old news!

 

[Paul B]

Yes Scooter, but so am I :lol:

 

[Scooterman]

Yes Scooter, but so am I :lol:

LOL well I understand where you come from with that but after reading months on just DSB's & all of the research done on them it still hurts my head & you want to bring it up again!:shock:

 

[Paul B]

Scooter old friend, I personally don't have a DSB so I don't even have to read this dribble :lol:
I always thought they were a flawed idea and I still think that way. But not everyone is running out to buy a RUGF so it is what it is

 

[luke33]

Yea, i've always thought dsb's were bomb's waiting to go off. Good to see i'm not alone : )

 

[windwaterwaves]

For us newbies... WTH is a RUGF?

Also as a newbie the article states that two much live rock is as bad as a dsb, and areas of anoxic (shallow) are better than anaerobic (deep non oxygen), so does that mean that bio balls which are all surface area are therefore more anoxic are better than live rock which has large anaerobic areas?

I ask this because I went from a fish only system with bio balls, to a reef system, and the biggest setback was when I removed the bioballs because it was a "nitrogen factory". So should I put them back?

 

[aquariumdebacle]

I can't let a DSB question (or comment) go by w/o adding my $.01 (tough times for everyone!) First, what I believe they are reffering to is a Revers-flow Under Gravel Filter.

A well mantained DSB can be an effective remover of Nitrate. The article is an oversimplification of a complex ecological enviroment. There are many more types of bacteria involed and they will all compete for the energy that you add into your system as food and light.

A well maintained DSB needs to have at least a quarter of it totally removed from the system on a yearly basis and replaced with fresh unused sand. This will provide a complete turnover of less than five years which seems to be about the limit of a deep sand bed of four inches to half a foot.

The reason people do not use them any more is first, what a pain to remove and replace so much sand every year. Second they do not undertand tha this is vital and must be done becouse otherwise the bed will fill. It will fill with the same material as live rock - organics, commonly called detritus. Over time nooks and crannies (as well as the ones between the grains of sand) accumulate organics due to bacteria populations feeding and growing on the organics added to the system as food.

The best way to avoid this is not let the organics get into the places where bacteria can feed on them which is every survace area in the entire system that comes into contact with the water. The best way to accomplish this is through nutrient export.

There are three viable options for nutrient export: removal of the water/substrate, algae culture but this is not removed until it is actually taken out of the system. Feeding this back to your fish does not count as removal. The last and most effective is protein skimming. It happens on a constant 24/7 basis and is actually removed from the system in the process (except where the cup overflows back into the sump!) It also provides a very nice system for gas exchange.

What was found that most do not understand is that nitrate is not the problem at all; phosphat is the problem. Corals can live in relativly high concentrations of nitrate. Phosphate will replace the calcium ions in a coral skeleton and create light latticed coral structures with phenominal growth rates. Unfortunately they are very weak skeltons resulting in a coral that is very weak and will die (sps corals in specific.) It is very noticible in a tank as a small tuft of algae will grow from the coral and the owner will brag of their incredible growth rates.

Calcium is actually something that the coral is trying to get rid of as a waste product. They have harnessed calcification to rid there systems of execess calcium. You want color from a coral not growth. They will grow in time but that is not the goal. A pretty, healthy coral should be the goal.

Design your system to keep the nutrients in suppession with good water flow and get a really good protien skimer that is fed from the surface overflow of the tank. If you use sand, replace a portion every half year and you should not have a problem. Same goes for live rock.

 

[Paul B]

Windwaterwaves, bioballs would be considered aerobic meaning they work in an oxygen envirnment. Bioballs are great at converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrate but it ends there. You still need anerobic bacteria found in live rock and sand beds to convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas to be eliminated. The article states that the nitrogen gas could under certain circumstances be turned back into ammonium ans nitrate.
A RUGF such as I have is a standard UG filter run in reverse. I run mine very slow which is the way I invented in the seventees. It seems to work fine and I never had to remove gravel.

 

[Scooterman]

I think my next tank I'll do a dsb in my display, sure had issues but it was really cool to look at, I guess after having several bb tanks & dsb's & I like them both for different reasons. There have been tanks with DSB's up & running over 17 years, similar to Paul's tank as far as livestock and it worked a long time & can be done.

 

[Paul B]

Scooter, I won't have another tank, I think mine will last as long as I will :lol:

 

[Scooterman]

Scooter, I won't have another tank, I think mine will last as long as I will :lol:

Time to retire that thing & go NANO!

 

[Krish]

my tank which is very old, dirty, over fed and runs with a RUGF does not have nitrate issues

I think this is probably do to the fact that you have a lot of algae growing in your tank which is using up the nitrates for it's growth so therefore may be the reason why you feel you don't have any nitrate issues. JMO

 

[Paul B]

Krish that of course could be the answer but there have not been any algae in my tank in a couple of years. This picture was taken a few weeks ago, there is absolutely no algae.
In the past there has been plenty of cycles of algae but for some reason it doesen't grow any more. Maybe it got tired of me ignoring it
I have an algae trough in there which is also completely free of algae. My rocks are dark because they are old and they do have a coating on them which seems to be a very short red algae from the Long Island Sound but even that is mostly on the cement rocks.
I think my RUGF takes care of all the nitrates along with my hollow rocks and maybe even the bottles.
I do not have to change any water to control nitrates. I change it just because I may need to replace some trace elements but not for nitrate control.

Notice the gravel, bottles and most rocks are clean

 

[Krish]

Krish that of course could be the answer but there have not been any algae in my tank in a couple of years. This picture was taken a few weeks ago, there is absolutely no algae.
In the past there has been plenty of cycles of algae but for some reason it doesen't grow any more. Maybe it got tired of me ignoring it
I have an algae trough in there which is also completely free of algae. My rocks are dark because they are old and they do have a coating on them which seems to be a very short red algae from the Long Island Sound but even that is mostly on the cement rocks.
I think my RUGF takes care of all the nitrates along with my hollow rocks and maybe even the bottles.
I do not have to change any water to control nitrates. I change it just because I may need to replace some trace elements but not for nitrate control.

I think you've posted this picture before (if not a similar one) but this is part of what I was referring to when I said algae. On the right side of the tank in that pic you posted, the red stuff you referred to as turf algae that looks like it is releasing bubbles is what I was talking about. Even kinda resembles cyno from this side of the screen. Another example which made me come to this conclusion was Post #13 for example found here http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36661 which it appears like there is alot of algae growth all over the rocks in the backround which is why I made the comment I did.

 

[Paul B]

Krish, I do agree it looks like cyano in the picture. That picture was when the tank had 5 year old 10,000K lighting. I recently changed the lights to new 1400K and it doesen't look so red. This picture is of an anemone I just collected in the Long Island Sound on the rock from the Sound. This picture was taken before the anemone and rock was even put in my tank. See that reddish coating? That, whatever it is, covers the cement based rocks in my tank giving them a dark red appearence. That picture is greatly enlarged and was taken through a jeweler's loupe. That anemone is about 1/4" tall. The few rocks that have some of that 1/16" long red algae should not be removing hardly any nitrates. Red algae are not that good at algae control anyway. In my algae trough it is completely clean, even this red stuff is not growing in there. I will try to find an updated picture with the new lights

 

[Paul B]

Krish, just because I like you I took another picture just now. There is some of that
reddish coating on the cement rock above the cardinal. For some reason that stuff likes cement. People are not used to seeing a tank such as mine because thats what rocks look like after they have been in a tank for 40 years, they get dark and do not have the colorful growth as the new five year and newer tanks have. This rock will never again be beautiful as it has not seen the sea in many years. But either way, that coating should have almost no bearing on nitrates, I wish it did, I would patent it.
My tank looks like the bottom of the Long Island Sound because thats where the water and some of the rocks come from. It comes in cycles and will probably disappear in the summer only to be replaced by something else after I add Sound mud for the bacteria.
This tank is vastly different from any tank you will find on here, certainly not better or nicer looking but very different. I know no one on here runs a RUGF or adds mud or water and amphipods from the Sound. The tank has no cyano except for a tiny bit under the gravel at the front glass. Many of the fish along with the hermit crabs are spawning so I know it's healthy. That fireclown is 16 or so years old.
Anyway, I doubt that little red covering on a few rocks is converting anything.
I believe it is my RUGF along with the associated bacteria that I add whenever I go down to my boat. I know it's wierd. but it seems to work.
Are there any other 39 year old tanks we can compare it to?
How about 20 year old tanks? 15?

Krish I see that post #13 you are talking about. That picture is maybe a year old and there was more red stuff then. That picture was taken in front of another cement rock which has a red coating. Those 5 year old 10,000K lights are above it also.
My pictures are also taken without a flash and that stuff certainly looks like cyano in the picture, but I can assure you, it is not. If it was, it would not concern me, but it is not.
I think I will send you a nice Long Island Sound rock so you can make your tank red LOL

 

[Paul B]

Hey Krish you will get a kick out of this picture. You want to see algae. This picture was taken 15 years ago. That fireclown in the picture is the same one as I still have. Look at all the hair algae. It looks like a farm.
It was one of the bad cycles and I don't remember what I did to grow so much plant life but it disappeared on it's own as it always will with no input on my part.

 

[Krish]

LOL! Thanks for the pics! Guess all tanks are a work in progress (yours being the most being the oldest). Not too sure I understand/agree with why a 35 year old rock would stop coloring up after a certain period of time because on reefs that are decades upon decades old are colorful and beautiful as hell, but definately not grounds for comparison. A tank no matter who's will never compare to mother nature so we shouldn't even try and compare. With that said, keep doing what you are doing man...Seems like you are enjoying the journey.

 

[Paul B]

Krish, I enjoy every minute of my life and hate to sleep. I think rock in a tank for many years loses all of that diversity from being in the sea. Much of the life you see in newly collected rock has life growing on it that was hatched and spent time as plankton before it settled on to the rock. That does not happen in a tank so you are left with just pods and worms, not very colorful. Also much of the color on rock comes from sponges that die after a while in a tank.
Like I said, I don't have any old tanks to compare it to. Maybe when all of you guys tanks reach an old age, they will be beautiful. I will be dead so I will just haunt you and release ich into your tanks :badgrin: