Tripping circuit help

[uwscotch]

So my tank is tripping a GFCI outlet that is on the same circuit and sometimes throws the breaker. I have since rewired things to different circuits and all seems well, but I want to identify if something is drawing too many amps. The original wiring to the circuit are the following. 2 x 55W PFO powercompact. Rio 2500 for water return. Rio 800 driving skimmer. Rio 600 for hang-on refugium. 18W Jalli power compact. wavemaster driving 4 pumps: Maxi 1200, 900, Aquaclear 402, 802. 150W Ebo Jagger heater. 120V to 12V inverter for cooling fans. With this combination, everything is fine. All of this is on a 15 Amp circuit. All is well and I should be able to run about 1800 watts on this circuit. Correct??? I recently purchased 2 65W CSL power compacts. If either one is plugged in for 5-10 minutes, it trips the GFCI or breaker. It is only another 65W for one or 130W for the two of them meaning I Have about 800W or less on this circuit. Do I have a bad component??? I narrowed it down to if I have the rio pump, PFO 2 x 55W and 1 additional CSL 65W, it will also trip the circuit. I transfer to a 20A circuit and everything is fine but I suspect something is drawing too much current and influencing negatively on my electric bill. My last test was to just put all of the lights, old and new on the circuit that trips, No pumps, etc. And after a few hours, it tripped the GFCI. Since only one or the other of the CSL new lites would trip meaning they are similar it Amp draw, i think it narrows it down to the PFO 2 X 55W lites. Before I go out and spend a bunch of money and throw this away, is their any way I can test it? Put an in-line amp meter?? Will this work? Is my circuit tripping too easily, other problems in the GFCI or breaker?? I can plug everything in the 20Amp circuit and turn everything on in the house on that circuit and it will not trip. I am affraid one of my appliances on the tank is just at the threshold of tripping the circuit and the new lites push it over the edge. Ideally I would like to test everything and make sure it is drawing a reasonable number of Amps.

 

[DonW]

I'm no electrician but a clamp on amps probe will tell you what each component in drawing. You may have a bad ballast that is heating up. You may want to swap out the 20a breaker with another to see what happens. Breakers do go bad from time to time. I can tell you I can run:

2 250 MH
2 6000Lph pumps
2 vho
2 300w heaters
1 2500Lph pump
2 MJ-1200
2 110v small fans
2 110v room fans
1 no 4 ft fixture
On a single 20a breaker with no problems at all.

Don

 

[Scooterman]

give me a few to read through this agin and i'll see if i can shead some light. BRB

 

[uwscotch]

Maybe I'll look into an Amp probe. I agree that I shouldn't be tripping the circuit. I hope my explanation above is understandable.

 

[Scooterman]

I recently purchased 2 65W CSL power compacts. If either one is plugged in for 5-10 minutes, it trips the GFCI or breaker.

I think you answered your own question here. First of all, your total wattage of the 15a circuit, does this include other items in the circuit, or is this outlet wired Only to this one outlet? I suspect that in most cases, you may have several outlets per circuit breaker, so check into that first.

Now, with that said, having available Two Separate circuits, in any case is always safer. This allows for load sharing, on each separate breaker. If you were swapping out breakers at the breaker box, make sure your wiring is capable of handling a 20a circuit breaker, otherwise you could potentially burn open your wiring & cause an electrical fire.

Ok, most probably like I said, you answered your own question there, If you had no problems before you added the two lights.
Test them out alone on that one 15a circuit and see what happens, tripping breakers is a good sign that they are working and something is wrong. In this case the actual breaker is tripping, not at the GFCI, which usually means overloading of the circuit or a short of some kind, maybe a thermal problem with the new lights or a bad ground. I suspect at times a bad ground would cause a GFCI to trip with an overload. The light fixture must be grounded completely, also the ballast, & sometimes by adding these safety features, solves the GFCI problem. Now If you can try the New lights on another 15a circuit breaker without the GFCI & it trips after running a while, then you need to return them to the manufacturer for repair or replacement. Isolation is key in determining the problem, also first and foremost, if you question your abilities at the least, GET Professional Help!

 

[uwscotch]

Thanks scooterman.

I have the circuit isolated, ie, nothing else plugged into the other outlets for testing purposes. I do not want to swap the breakers around since I live in an appartment and am unaware of the wiring and whether it is capable of supporting a 20 Amp breaker. I agree with spreading the load onto different circuits, but I want to identify any problem before I just split things up and go when an item may be failing. So far, it looks like if I put the new lights along with all other accessories on this circuit, it is fine, until I plug in the old 2 x 55W PFO. Also, if the old PFO is plugged in with everything else, it is fine, but the addition of one or the other new lite individually trips it, so i think it is unlikely that I have two new lites that are both bad. I feel as though it is then the old PFO lites or the circuit is whimpy. Does that sound reasonable. I do have an Amp meter that works for AC, i've never used it, only on DC. Does it need to be in-line with the circuit to test it. Maybe i will just leave a set of lites turned off and think about finding a proffessional or replace the old lites with 2 more CSL 65W since they are so dirt cheap locally. See if this still trips the circuit since it will now be 130W instead of 110.

Thanks again

 

[Scooterman]

Do me a favor and still test the new lights alone & isolated. Cheap lights can at times lead to cheap problems. It may be just a small grounding problem, I suspect that the new lights don't have enough grounding. I.e., from the metal housing or chassis of the fixture, to the ballast itself, to the wall ground. The conflict may be reversed & the PFO's need to be completely grounded to work with the new lights or higher load on the circuit. The amp meter must be in series to the circuit to do a test, unless you have a clamp on type meter, also the amp rateing on the meter can't be exceeded. I agree, you need to isolate the problem before sleeping well at night. I think if you try on a circuit without the GFCI, just the new lights and let it run a while to see, also take an amp reading. it should be around 1.0833 amps, for a 130w fixture. If these new fixtures draw over 2 amps, I'd consider their In-efficiency the reason for the cheap cost, so before buying more check that out. Maybe you can run the new lights alone on the 20A circuit and have no other issues, plug them into a surge power strip rated at 15A, with a ground, you should have plenty of protection, excluding the GFCI on them. Whatever you do, be safe & don't do something that your not sure of, safety above all else, your corals will thank you for that, & your neighbor!

 

[uwscotch]

Thank you very much. I'm heading home early today and I'll give these suggestions a try and I will keep you posted. I agree completely about the safety aspect and the best case scenario, just tripping the circuit and no dire consequences.

aaron

 

[sparky52]

Let me just clear one thing up here....a GFCI(ground fault circuit interupter) has nothing..NOTHING to do with Ground, the way a GFCI operates is buy using a small current transformer to measure the amount of current flow leaving the phase,or hot conductor and coming back on the "grounded" or nuetral not "grounding" conductor...if this current differs by a specific set point the GFCI opens the circuit...because you see, in a proper series circuit, the current value remains constant. So if whats going out aint coming back it is going outside the circuit "somewhere", the GFCI does not care where it is going, it only knows that it is not coming back where it belongs..to the center tap of the utillity co. transformer via the nuetral conductor. Electricity does not...I repeat does not seek ground it only wants to get back where it came from and it will take any road you give it to get home. Now if you are tripping a breaker chances are you are simply drawing to much current, and by the way think about this that 15amp breaker you are using is being used for what we call continuous loads...loads that are on for more than three hours at a time on a regular basis, this means that you have to add up all of your loads that stay on for more than three hours, and that is most of them, and take that amp # and increase it by 125%...this is what you must size your wire size and overcurrent protection to. That 15A breaker is only allowed to be loaded to 80% on a continuous basis....whoa now you only have 12A to use up, and 16A on a 20A. My advice to anyone with high electrical demands like us reef nuts is to have dedicated 20A circuits-2- minimum...thats what you are required to have on your kitchen counter top by code, and if you are like me you have alot more equip. in the fish area than the kitchen. Hope this helps clear up some zaap zaap stuff for ya...any electrical ? fire em my way see ya

 

[jsmkmavity]

most hvac tecnicians and all electricians should have a clamp-on ammeter. this will tell you what each circuit is drawing. the total should not add up to 15 amps for continuous use! sometimes GFCI outlets go bad to! and breakers as you already mentioned! if you pull the outlet out from the wall you could see what size wire is coming into the box- 12 ga wire is good for 20 amps 14 ga is good for 15 amps. check in the panel which breaker shuts off the outlet your using and make sure the same size wire is coming from there too! if both have 12 ga wire then you can use a 20 amp breaker but i think the GFCI outlets only come in 15 amp, so you would want more than one outlet and not in series from the GFCI. the reason for checking both ends of the circuit is sometimes things get added on later with 12 ga wire but the original circuit from the breaker is only 14 ga- fooling some people into thinking they can run a 20 amp breaker without checking the wire at the panel! hope this helps, if you have ANY questions pm me and i will help you thru it. WHEN IN DOUBT-LET THE SMOKE OUT!

 

[liveforphysics]

Scooterman- ... thats some real nice electrical info there... I love the 5 sig-figs used on your amp calculation while assumeing impossible efficiency, and not knowing the PCF of the ballast... Gotta love the not having a clue why a GFCI trips too... And the band-aid breaker up-rate/division that just screams equipment fire danger... pro...


UWscotch- Everything that Sparky52 said is nearly exactly correct. GFCI trips because of an imbalence in electron movement exceeding a point that it creates a magnetic field strong enough to open a relay. The electrons dont actually make it a loop back to the center tap, they just feel a push from the center tap back and forth, but the same electrons are used over trillions of times rather then being sent back to the power company. The powercompany just provides the push and pull on the existing electrons on the surface of the wires.

Anyways, I roughly calculated your total current draw with everything running to be about 7.5amp (+-1amp). No reason to need more breakers if the equipment is running properly, but its obviously not.

If you want me to repair the old PFO (Its just a workhorse 4 or 5 IS ballast), you can bring it by my place. I live about 1.5miles from Elmo18, PM me for the addy. I gotta warn you though, all new workhorse ballasts are potted in this tar that I cant disolve to work on the circut. However, I suspect this is an external issue with the equip that would be easy enough to repair.

For these little current loads, you dont need to do anything more than have your equipment in good condition.

 

[Scooterman]

Who said anything about the GFCI is seeking ground, a shorted ground to the GFCI or an overload maybe would trip the breaker I wasn't clear maybe? Luke I know I'm not there looking at this equipment, this is worst case, you should know better, I'm just giving thoughts as to what could be the problem, I know this isn't perfect numbers. I never meant related the GFCI as being a ground problem, but equipment ground is a different story, & this was towards the main breaker tripping if there was some shorting or faulty ballast.

 

[sparky52]

Im sorry but you said "I suspect at times a bad ground would cause a GFI to trip with an overload" in your post...maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Scooterman]

I wasn't clear on that part, I fully understand how a GFCI works but wasn't necessary to give the through details as you posted (which was good information BTW), trouble shooting via post isn't really the easiest thing to do & can be easily misunderstood. I don't like throwing up more than necessary information because most people will get confused or this could start an argument. Thanks for your input sometime I do post in a hurry and just jibber too fast without getting into technical details or posting clear enough for the experienced persons to understand my goals. They do make GFCI breakers BTW. I had my GFCI trip under a high load situation like a regular breaker, I just had a few other EE's saying the same thing.

 

[jsmkmavity]

if you get into the boxes you should make sure ALL the screws are tight! loose connections at the breaker in the wire nuts at the outlet and the screws in the outlet are all potential problems as well! the loose connections cause an increase in amperage and this causes heat build-up which increases resistance which increases amp draw- you get the idea! i would check the circuit connections in the house first and then check all the connections in the equipment. if i wasnt so far away i could help too! one good thing about luke being close is he could check continuity and voltage drop/amp draw and narrow the possibilities without tearing every thing completely apart for physical inspection.

 

[uwscotch]

Wow. I thank all of you guys for the excellent info. Since the original post was in june of 2004, I've since solved the problem. Both of the CSL ballasts burned up. Complete pieces of crap. I connected them to this cool little device called kill-a-watt. You plug the device in an outlet and then plug in each individual item. It tells you the Watts, Amp draw, Volts, etc. and also calculates the information over an extended period of time. Helps you control electricity costs. I test every pump I plug in and choose the most efficient ones I find. MaxiJets Rule. The CSL ballasts were having sporadic amp draws and one of them eventually cooked itself. The second one died shortly there after. I was only running it while I was around to monitor it. They were closeouts with the ballast, bulb, clips, etc for only $35. What a deal I thought. Thanks again for all of the info. This will be very useful to other people to understand circuitry and what you should expect from GFCI.

Thanks

Aaron

 

[sparky52]

Yeah scooter i have a habit of over explaining things, and to be honest with you my post was not intended for you but rather the guy asking the original question, Also a GFI breaker will trip on overload because it also contains a thermal/magnetic mech. as well as the c/t. Anyway, have a good one bro.

 

[sparky52]

anytime Aaron, glad to help.

 

[twilliard]

I thought I would just drop in and add my 2 cents for people with tripping issues currently. Dont worry this isnt all hot air, im an electrician by trade.

I would have to ask you what brand of breakers you have. Once you trip a breaker the actual "trip rate" decreases. It may hold at 20A the first trip but may trip at 19.5A on the second trip then 19 on the third, so on and so on. Not typical on every make of breaker though.
Eventualy the breaker will never hold the orriginal load.

As stated before use an amp meter and make sure that you try not to go over 18A on a 20A breaker.
Also if you keep having nusance trips on the GFI, replace it. Now days GFI's are a lot better at motor loads but back in the day they sucked at it
I tried not to get to technical
BUt I didnt notice any one mention replacing the breaker.

Thanks for reading