Trouble in Paradise (link to article)...important read

[spiffluk]

I hope it will stimulate a lively, substantive debate without any nastiness...

Trouble in Paradise: Coral Reefs at Risk : The Humane Society of the United States

 

[returnofsid]

I'm sorry, but that article is so biased and takes so many things out of context, as to not even be reliable. It "reeks" of Snorkel Bob and his attempts to discredit our hobby, all the while, making a fortune, catering to tourists who are destroying reefs by walking all over them, on his tours. I'd venture a bet that Snorkel Bob was a major contributor to that article.

Just skimming the article, quickly, there are so many ignorant things said, it's not even worthy of argument...for instance,

I see a proposed law to prohibit "depriving them of food for more than 24 hours before shipping." Ummm, do most people not realize that this is actually a method for keeping more fish ALIVE, during transport? The practice of "fasting" prior to shipping, drastically cuts down on ammonia that accumulates in the shipping water. A healthy fish can go 2 weeks without eating. 24 hours, to help keep the fish alive, is nothing.

and "Most of the reefs, other than a third off West Hawaii, are open for collection..." Far from true. In fact, MOST, something like 90%, of the water is protected from collection, while not protected from the likes of Snorkel Bob, who takes his tourists out to trample all over the reefs!

If you'd like to read some much more accurate information, on this subject, along with finding out what Snorkel Bob is truly about, read through this, http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900429

 

[spiffluk]

I don't know who Snorkel Bob is or why he would want to discredit our hobby, but I do agree that the point about depriving food seems specious. Looking beyond the particulars about Hawaii, I still think there is an unacceptably high mortality rate for all wild-caught reef animals which should make us think twice about buying them, and go with tank-raised or 'adopt' instead.

 

[returnofsid]

Do some research into Snorkel Bob. He's a huge proponent in actually outlawing our hobby. He's also recently become affiliated with the Whale Wars Eco-terrorists, in attacking our hobby. The thing is, his attacks are based on inaccuracies, exaggerations and out right lies.

 

[Chichas01]

makes me want to order a yellow tang fresh off the reef from Les this week.:lol:

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I disagree with much in the article, but want to thank you for the contribution.
"The more you know, the better you are prepared"

 

[returnofsid]

I disagree with much in the article, but want to thank you for the contribution.
"The more you know, the better you are prepared"

After reading Mike's response, and then going back and reading my response, I need to make an apology. My response, was in no way reflecting on your contribution, spiffluk. Re-reading my response, I see that it did come across that way. I apologize for that and also thank you for your contributions, here on Reef Frontiers!!

Mike, once again, your wisdom sets me straight. Thanks...lol.

 

[mojoreef]

spiffluk good topic for discussion. I am not going to debate the article as it is written by a very jaded individual with money to gain. But the event did happen, no one really knows where the fish came and the assumpsion is on the aquarium collectors, probibly but who really knows as eco folks ahve been know to go to extremes to press their point.

Anyway aside form that and assuming it was collectors this used to be something that happened alot in the industry. But through self regulation (as their was not alot of oversight and the eco folks were busy elsewhere) their has been a massive change in operations both domestic and abroad. Collectors now are supplying nets and teaching natives how to collect fish (which they need to survive and will do regardless) with out the big impacts that used to occur in the wild and in the fish they capture. They dump millions of dollars into these operations of teaching and working with locals but none of that ever seems to be noticed by the press orthe high and mighties.

I would venture to say that the aquarium industry has done more recently to help the long term health of our natural reefs then any eco orginisation has. Captive breeding has not only eased the pressure on catching wild for the hobby, but has also helped in repopulating the reefs themselves. In regards to corals, fragging and propagation has now been adopted by govermental agencies to rebuild reefs and relocate them. I am sure the likes of snorkel Bob didnt have a role to play.

According to most eco fanatics our mere existance is a threat to anything and everything. Dont eat meat, dont live in cities, dont drive cars and so on. Dont capture fish to keep in an aquarium, mean while its ok to rent some of Bob's snorkle gear and dive onto the reef, all while watching a group of white tips pass over a school of tangs and eat a few hundred with each pass. Or maybe have all the tourist divers from his shop bounce around on the reef, touching and playing with the corals or bouncing off them and damaging them. But the aquaculture biz down the beach that has been growing off of frags in the shallows has to die??

I just think these folks will not be happy until we are all back living in caves and eating grass

just an opinion



Mojo

 

[spiffluk]

Why just one...order a whole school

 

[spiffluk]

No apologies necessary...we're all here to air our views, ideally supported by evidence

 

[mojoreef]

You lost me their ??


mojo

 

[spiffluk]

As an 'eco-folk' myself I don't agree with your statement about living in caves and eating grass...all I'm saying is that we should all be mindful of the impacts we all have on the env't and try to minimize the unnecessary ones, not to mention unnecessary cruelty to animals

 

[spiffluk]

How so?

 

[returnofsid]

No apologies necessary...we're all here to air our views, ideally supported by evidence

Exactly! Now, back to the original article, that you posted a link to. There is absolutely NO evidence, to back up most of the claims, made in that article.
In my first post, on this thread, I pointed out 2 or 3 of the claims, that are either mistakes, ideas, quotes or evidence taken out of context, or out right lies. It is important, to view evidence, in a questioning manner, some times, to make sure the evidence is actually accurate. Sometimes, people have unethical motivations, to "twist" evidence, to fit their needs. Unfortunately, this is very much the case, with Snorkel Bob, and most of his ilk.

 

[spiffluk]

Are there more reliable sources of info about reef fish mortality? Again, leaving aside the particulars about Hawaii, my impression is that overall the mortality rate is substantial, and we should ask ourselves whether it's all worth it.

 

[returnofsid]

I don't have any current statistics, on fish mortality. However, I'd venture a guess that the fish mortality, due to sports fishing, commercial fishing and pollution are each IMMENSELY greater than the fish mortality caused by our hobby. Billions upon Billions of fish are tossed back into the ocean, dead, by commercial fishing industry, because they weren't the "target" fish, but were caught up in the nets.

Yes, I think our hobby does contribute a slight amount, to an increased mortality, among marine fish. However, I think major steps have been taken, in the post 15-20 years, to reduce those mortality rates. I believe our hobby's impact is becoming less and less of an issue, all the while, our hobby is drastically increasing awareness, in a very positive way. This awareness has resulted in many more people being concerned and involved, in efforts to conserve the natural resources of our world's oceans.

So, when I ask myself, "is it worth it?" My answer, to myself is "Yes, it's worth it." Personally, I am much more aware, concerned and involved, about our ocean's health, than I was before getting involved in this hobby.

 

[mojoreef]

Again, leaving aside the particulars about Hawaii, my impression is that overall the mortality rate is substantial, and we should ask ourselves whether it's all worth it.

Thats a question we can ask about everything though right?? The impact on forests so we can live in houses, the impact on the enviroment so we can drive care, the impact on animals so we can advance science. At what point do you stop really.

And fish arent really animals right, no subconscious. I am sure if you were in the ocean and a school of hungry fish swam past you, they would be debating the morality of taking a bite? Never mind the thought of taking you home and providing an enviroment for ya??

Mojo

 

[spiffluk]

OK, then at least it's an informed choice. I agree that those other forms of fish exploitation are quantitatively much greater, but I think those need to change too. Too many of these conservation debates devolve into finger-pointing exercises that end up with nobody changing the way they do things and the resource drying up completely.

 

[spiffluk]

It's often hard to nail down a specific 'point' beyond which we can say definitely that we've overdone it, but when you take a look around at the vanishing species, increasing desertification, falling water tables, warming climate, growing pollution etc I think it's safe to say that our business-as-usual approach needs to change.

Fish are very definitely animals, specifically vertebrates with a nervous system that's quite similar to ours, so there's no reason to assume that they don't feel pain. The point isn't whether they're conscious or not, what really matters is whether they can suffer. We have no reason or right to reserve our sense of morality and ethics strictly for our own species.

 

[mojoreef]

Great hook spiffluk though I do commend you for that :yo:

We have no reason or right to reserve our sense of morality and ethics strictly for our own species

I am pretty sure all top of the food chain species do that. Right or wrong.

Anyway I think one could endlessly go back and forth trying to express their view or their own sence of mortality on others and that is something I dont have the energy to do. So the question then is "If you feel this way why do you keep an aquaruim with fish in it'??

mojo