What fish would work best? Can I get one more tang?

[brandyrb]

My husband and I just setup our 300 gal aquarium w/ 125 gal sump/refugium and I would like to know what the experts would suggest as far as fish combinations are concerned.

I would like to get another tang besides the ones I'm listing I have or will get. What are your experiences/thoughts on this? What other fish would you recommend? This will eventually be an SPS dominated tank, so we don't want a huge bioload, but I do want a decent amount of fish. The skimmer is a Deltec AP702.

Thanks,

Brandy

Current Fish:

Med. Adult Emporer Angel
Small Adult Desjardin Tang
Med Juvenile Regal Blue Tang
Bi-color Blenny
Royal Gramma
Blue Chromis
Black Clown Gobie
Pink Spot Shrimp Gobie
2 Percula Clowns (Mated Pair)
Black ocellaris
Mandarin
Six-line Wrass

Fish I plan on getting:

African Leapard Wrasse
Black Cap Jawfish
Yellow Head Jawfish
Blonde Naso Tang
Sleeper Banded Gobie

Fish I would like to get in addition to the ones above:

My husband wants a school of blue/green chromis (I don't)
Powder Blue Tang (LFS said there could be a problem w/ the sailfin)
OR
Achilles Tang
Maybe some colorful reef safe wrasses
???

 

[brandyrb]

I guess I should add that this tank was an upgrade from a 125 gal and a 64 gal. The emperor angel sometimes bullies the sailfin, but the sailfin follows the emperor everywhere he goes regardless. What I mean by bully, the emperor will grunt and chase the sailfin when he gets annoyed. Neither of them even notice the Regal/hippo tang.

 

[LakeEd]

I will admit to being biast, but I believe an Achilles would mix in nicely in that size tank.

 

[leebca]

I feel compelled to point out a bit of a contradiction. You state:

so we don't want a huge bioload

Then proceed to list what amounts to a very large bio-load. The large Angelfish and the Desjardini will grow and get very large. The Angelfish will need a 500+ gallon aquarium in a couple of years, if you are feeding it correctly. Between just those two, they place a very large bio-load on the system.

I think if you want to keep SPSs, then you don't want any more fish and maybe to return, sell or setup a FOWLR tank for many of the fishes you now have. For the sake of a great success with SPSs and other corals, it is best to only keep lean reef fishes and very few of them.

The 300 will be ready for those fishes in about 10 months after cycling. I hope the tank has matured before you add anymore fishes.

As to the limit, this would be a good idea on that, without the SPS factor: Fish Stocking Limit – for FO and FOWLR. If you read this reference, you'll learn there are many considerations to what the bio-load limit is.

I for one would need to know more about the system and your maintenance you are doing on the system to estimate its capacity, so I can't say what, if anything, should be added. The sump is just one (small) factor in the marine system which contributes to the bio-load capacity of the system.

Having two Tang residents now, they will not easily accept any more Tangs and more than likely defend the tank against the entry of any more Tangs. The personality factor will enter into their ability to get along with new comers, too.

 

[brandyrb]

I've never heard or read that an emporer would need a 500+ gal tank, so that statement suprises me. I've read a minimum tank size of 100 "liveaquaria" and been told a minimum 125 LFS. I know that three of the current residents will get large 12-15 inches, but the others stay small.

So the contradiction you are refering to wasn't a contradiction on my part. I didn't think the bioload was already huge.

The angel and sailfin were in our 125 gal tank w/ a 30 gal sump and the nitrates were 10ppm before we got a better skimmer, the deltec, than the nitrates were undetectable.

The blue tang was temporarily in the 64 gal until the upgrade because I wanted to make sure the angel and tangs were added at the same time to reduce the chance of conflict. I also had a blonde tang ordered at my LFS but the fish arived there in bad condition, so I never got it. I was going to have the LFS order another one.

The fish have been in the 300 gal for three days now and all the rock used was fully cured. We had the 125 running for 2 years and it was an upgrade from a 55 gal which we had going for another 2 years before that. The 64 gal was bought used with the live rock and had been up for a little over a year.

We were performing 20% water changes w/ RODI water every 2 weeks on the other tanks before the upgrade. We haven't done a water change on the 300 yet because we just got it going. 75 gals of its water came from the 125, all of the rock came from the other two tanks and we added 195 of new white argonite sand and we are going to add another 120 lbs of live sand that is still in our 125. The 300 gal tank is 8' long.

We feed once (sometimes twice) daily with a mixture of brine shrimp, mysis, formula one, angel formula, cyclopeeze and formula two. I put seeweed select green marine algae in twice a week.

 

[krisfal]

For the sake of a great success with SPSs and other corals, it is best to only keep lean reef fishes and very few of them.

Sorry if I am hijacking here

Lee,

Can you further expand on the phrase "lean reef fishes"? I assume you are referring to fish that make less waste, as in your copperband butterfly fish you use as an example in your fish stock limit sticky. Specifically, I would be interested in a list of some common fish that would be considered "lean reef fish".

Thanks

 

[Reefergeorge]

I've never heard or read that an emperor would need a 500+ gal tank. (I don't know how to quote a single sentence)

Have you ever seen a 16" fish. My LFS had a full grow emperor in a 600 and it still looked to big for the tank.

 

[brandyrb]

Here's some pics of the tank. The lights aren't hung yet, but there is a lot of open swimming space. I have sps too, but they haven't been added yet. They are in a 40 breeder.

 

[leebca]

Thanks for your reply. I realize you have gathered up some mis-information, like most of us have, at some time or other. If you're willing to do some reading, you'll gain a lot form the posts here on Reef Frontiers.

First, the recommended tank sizes are bogus. The ones you're getting information from are people who sell fish or have something to gain, or just plain don't know. The needs of fish is not only gallonage, but includes swimming space, tank mates, and other environmental needs.

Allow me to suggest an example. When you look up the min tank size recommendation for a fish, you get say 100 gallons. But if you look up the min tank size for, let's say seven other fishes, and they too are listed at 100 gallons, does this mean that all 8 fishes should/could be put into that one 100 gallon tank? In other words, the recommendation isn't clear. Should that Angelfish be alone in that 100? How many other fishes can there be in there with it? So even if the recommendation is given, it is not clear as to the size and bio-load limits different sizes the fish goes through as it ages, and what the author means in the way of how many fish can be put in there with it.

Then, you may want to do a reality check. If someone said that a 2 foot shark only needs a 125 gallon (6 foot long) tank, would you think that okay? Why or why not? What in your mind says that, that 2 foot shark has grown to 6 feet in the wild, but it would be okay in the 125?

I can also assure you that for every 10 places you ask for a recommended tank size for a particular fish, you'll get about 5 different answers.

Marine fish don't stop growing. In the wild they die before they get real large, but in the safe confines of a marine system under the good care of an aquarist, they keep growing. You can reasonably expect the Emperor Angel to get over 18 inches long. I just helped a man treat his 12 inch Emperor. But what most people don't appreciate is that this fish needs a lot of swimming space. A 300 gallon for a large adult Emperor will put space stress on that fish. The 500+ is recommended for the full adults. If the fish was in its adult markings and colorations, it should be in a tank no less than 300, so I would not have recommended the 125 it came from, if it has its adult markings. A large Angelfish in transition would be okay in the 300. Sub-adult and juvenile large Angelfish are good for a 125 or over.

What does the above say about keeping large adult Angelfish? 'Not to be kept by the aquarist in large home aquariums,' is the answer. Fortunately, we can still enjoy the juveniles and then, when they get too large, find them a public aquarium to go to.

The waste produced by Tangs is considerable. They create a lot of fecal matter. They are heavy/big polluters (when they are fed properly, see below). The marine system has got to be geared to handle this. As the Tangs get larger they don't create waste just double when they double in size -- the waste goes up by a factor of 4.

Much of the above is explained in the link I previously provided. It takes some time to read it and absorb it. However, you'll find in that post a mention that implies that large Angelfishes need more than a 300 gallon aquarium.

Regarding the foods and feeding. The amount and kinds of food need improvement. This will take more reading for you to understand what should be done. This tells it all: Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition. Just as an examples, the herbivores and omnivores should be given macro algae (the sheets) twice a day, not twice a week and not just green, but also red, brown and if they will eat it, some purple. Mysis and brine shrimp are not nutritious and are low grade foods. If the Formula foods you are feeding are frozen, they are okay. If they are flake or pellet, they are also on the low end of the desirable food list. Feeding should be three times a day, but in no case less than twice per day. All these things are explained in the above link, if you'd take some time and read it. It's a long post, but I hope it will help your fish out.

I would tend to put your fish into the surviving mode, rather than thriving. (See below).

The problem with keeping a reef tank with fishes is that to keep the coral growing and doing well, the hobbyist is told to feed the fish very little to avoid overfeeding and creating more wastes. This doesn't make sense to me, a person who cares for marine fishes. The fish have got to eat what they need, regardless of the fact that the owner is trying to cultivate marine lifeforms that can't handle the waste. Holding back on feeding fish what they need to thrive rather than survive is not good marine husbandry. So as you move towards SPS, please keep this in mind.

As mentioned above, marine fish keep growing. I've seen a 16" Copperband Butterflyfish! It is amazing what a thriving fish can attain in captivity. And that is one goal, to provide captive fish a place they can thrive, rather than just survive. You can get more information along these lines from this link: Thrive or Survive?.

The up-sizing of marine systems can be tricky. Some go without a hitch, some end in disaster. Even if you have old live rock and live sand, the new marine system has to make microbial life adjustments and time is still needed to age and settle things down. I would add marine life very slowly to the new tank, and consider that there is more to water quality than just the things we test for by kits. These may give some insights into this:
What is Water Quality
and
The Mature Aquarium

I'm glad you're in the hobby. I think you are a very conscientious keeper of marine life. There is so much to learn and sometimes, some to unlearn.

The long-time and experienced aquarists here on Reef Frontiers are glad to help and provide information on any question you may have.

 

[leebca]

Kris,

The 'lean' fishes are those that are particularly stremlined and/or laterally compressed. Some fishes (general categories)
Gobies (those that remain short)
Cardinalfishes
Dartfishes
some:

Butterflyfishes
Anthias
Dottybacks
Grammas
Wrasses
Damsels​

just to name a few.

 

[brandyrb]

First of all, thank you for the responses.

Second, as you can see my tank is not over crowded. I have had the emporer since a juvenile.

Third, I have been keeping sps for 1.5 years now, so that move has already been made.

Fourth, maybe you should inform the stores that are mis-informing there customers because I haven't seen one store state that a 500 gal plus system is needed for this fish and if that is true, imagine how many emporers and being kept in too small of tanks.

Fifth, I "DO NOT" feed flake food, only frozen.

Sixth, I read A LOT, I research A LOT that is part of my job and part of what I enjoy with this hobbie.

Seventh, my fish are very healthy, otherwise you would be seeing me in this forum a lot more often.

and finally, I am somewhat offended by the way you responded, not what you responded with. I think if you provide the information with just as much concern for the caregiver as you do the fish, a lot of people would benefit from the information you provide. You could be gentler with your writen responses. I care alot about my fish and if that were'nt so, I wouldn't have spent the time or money building a 300 gal tank into my wall.

I am not against upgrading tank sizes with my fishes needs, but it will be a couple of years before I get a bigger tank. Apparently I need a bigger house and pocket book.

Take care and thanks for the responses...

Brandy

 

[brandyrb]

Lee,

Out of the fish I listed, are there any that you would agree to?

African Leapord Wrasse - reason for the DSB
Black Cap Jawfish - reason for the DSB
Yellow Head Jawfish - reason for the DSB
Blonde Naso Tang
Sleeper Banded Gobie - will help keep the sand bed clean

The total water volume is 400 gals or more. Our sump is almost full of water. My husband included some plumbing piece (a check valve I think) that will stop the water from siphoning back into the tank incase of a power outage, so we took advantage of that for added water volume. There is approx 180 lbs of live rock and will be approx 315 lbs of sand. The return from the sump is a powered by a sequence baracuda, the closed loop is also a sequence baracuda. The refugium will have chaeto and is approx 40 gals. I started reading your links, but haven't finished yet.

 

[brandyrb]

Lee,

I re-read what you wrote to my husband and after reading it a second time, I realized that I took you wrong. I was upset to hear that my tank size isn't appropriate for my fish after reading and being informed by others that it was. I was also offended that you said my fish are just surviving. I guess I just didn't like being told that I was wrong, so I apologize for that. I was the jerk, sorry.

 

[leebca]

I'm sorry that my post offended you. You are not a jerk (as I previously tried to make clear). Communicating by the written word is hard. You can't see my face and I can't see yours.

It is the angst most of us have been through -- the difference of what is known and what we are told. Stores want to sell. A $50 fish costs the store about $4. so you can see that if they don't sell, they fold. Replacing dead fish is their big income, following which is selling remedies. Without fish dieing, many would go out of business. It is the same reason they push hermit crabs. Experienced aquarists know that hermit crabs are undesirable. But the LFS pays pennies for them and sells them for dollars.

You never mentioned having a DSB, Chaeto in a refugium, and doing 20% water changes every two weeks, until now. That explains in part why your nitrates have been kept undetectable. You have optimized the system and maintenance to control nitrates. I would still advise to switching to a more frequent feeding schedule and then determine again if the nitrates remain undetectable, before making more additions.

But, getting back to your concerns. . .

The Jawfish and Goby are good additions, although before assuming the Goby will clean your substrate, the substrate must be of a certain size for the fish. Larger sizes will sometimes lead to killing a sand sifter. One more caution, since I have not kept that particular kind of Goby. . .Ask the LFS or maybe someone here can confirm, that the Goby doesn't pick up substrate, raise high in the aquarium, then sift. If it has this technique, like a Yellow Head Sleeper Goby, then it will distribute substrate over your corals. You'll want a sand sifter that remains low, while doing its job. I do know that this Goby is particularly feisty and doesn't get along well with others, by others' reports.

If the control of the nitrates can still be maintained, I don't see why any Tang wouldn't be a good addition. I would just go slowly and cautiously to make sure the SPSs aren't threatened.

Although the added water is a plus, the purpose of the sump is to hold the back flow/overflow water when the pump goes out. A bit tricky working around to not letting it do that. It is something we aquarists don't defeat.

I really like the Sequence marine aquarium pump line. They are very efficient.

Please ask if you have any other questions. I am again sorry for my previous communication.

 

[krisfal]

Kris,

The 'lean' fishes are those that are particularly stremlined and/or laterally compressed. Some fishes (general categories)
Gobies (those that remain short)
Cardinalfishes
Dartfishes
some:

Butterflyfishes
Anthias
Dottybacks
Grammas
Wrasses
Damsels​

just to name a few.

Thanks Lee, exactly what I was looking for!

 

[krisfal]

(I don't know how to quote a single sentence)

I have found the easiest way is to hit the quote button, then delete out the text you do not want, be sure to leave the quote commands.

 

[Reefergeorge]

Thanks....

I have found the easiest way is to hit the quote button, then delete out the text you do not want, be sure to leave the quote commands.

 

[csdoyle]

I just read through this thread and wanted to thank those who posted. Very informative and a great discussion. I for one learned something.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Damsel13]

I have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you all!

 

[brandyrb]

I just wanted to share what the tank looks like now...