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Weiser

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
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45
I currently have a 75gal reef tank with
2 False percs
1 Pygmy angel

What would be a good addition to the tank I tried a kole tang but for some reason it died within five minutes of being in my tank I acclimated it for 2 hours using the drip it looked pritty stressed.I was thinking of some chromis mabey 4 or five. I still feel prity bad about the kole tang I dont know what went wrong Ill probably wait a while before trying a tang again. what do you think, my nitrates are around 20ppm. :?:
 
Try this, if your getting your fish from the local fish store, first watch it for 15-20 minutes. Does it hide, or is it bold? Does it swim flat and true or wander. Is it very aware of you and looking at your eyes? If you are mailordering fish when they come in I may take some hits for this, but, I think the ph is down in the bag, and the ammonia is up. Drip acclimation raises the ph, and makes the ammonia more toxic. Some times the best thing for me, is to immediately remove the fish from the nasty water and quickly get it into healthy water. I have always looked at it like this. If I was floating in toxic waste, would I want to slowly have it switched over to clean water, or get the heck out of it and take a nice clean bath. And these guys have to breath it too. I dont know a whole lot about your tank. So size wise I am going to tell you about small hardy pretty fish. Royal Gramma. (awesome fish) Swalisi Basselet ( wonderful fish) The yellow or pink spot watchman goby. (Beautiful) Chromis like you said are great fish, I love to watch mine. I have had the best success with blonde naso tangs. They get huge though and mine will be moving into a larger tank, in two years or less. They just seem to be extra hardy tangs, in my experince. If you dont have shrimp a flame hawk is a great fish. I hope this has helped some. Steve
 
Steve,
Thats interesting about the no acclimating introduction for mail order fish. I was talking to Nikki and she mentioned that as well. I dont always acclimate corals, but I have always acclimated fish. Have you lost any fish that way? What fish have you done this with?

Weiser,
sorry to hear about your Kole tang. I'm one who considers the Ctenochaetus tangs to be more difficult than others to keep in captivity, just due to their feeding habits.

Your nitrates are high, but not dangerously so for fish. Inverts are a different story, and I wouldnt consider adding any until you get that under control.

For your size tank you could consider several different fish. Some of the ones I like are:

Black Cap Basslet
Royal Gramma
Chalk Bass (pretty, cool, and peaceful...only get to be 3 inches and are cheap too)
Blue/hippo tang
Firefish
any of the fairy or flasher wrasses

I can suggest more options for you when I get home and have a chance to look over my books and see what else would work for you.

Is this going to be an FO tank, or will this be a reef?

Nick
 
Yeah, I learned that (acclimating) working for corals and free fish at the local fish store. We would get orders in and the fish would be stewing in the nasty water. The ones that were acclimated would die within a day or two, the ones that were just droped in would get really light colored, and then perk up in a half and hour or so and be fine. Mitch just stoped acclimating them other than matching temp and if it was really bad water, we didnt even do that. I helped him unload on mondays and sometimes when I am looking for stock for other people, I go down on monday evening and help him. That way I get pick, and if I really like and am willing to take a risk, I can get them for less because they never even get unbagged and into his system.

One the firefish note, I forgot all about them. They are awesome fish. That is one no tank should be without. Unless you are dumb like me and put a moray in your reef. I finally got him out a little while back and traded for store credit. He ate my firefish, and my yellow watchman. Steve
 
Weiser said:
my nitrates are around 20ppm. :?:
That is high even if you took your time to acclimate, existing fish would probably acclimate to that over a longer period and be ok but not a new specimen.

With that said, I would not drip on a mail order either, instead I'd float long enough to get the temp corrected. Then remove one cup of water & replace with one until I did it several times but in certain cases like my new Hippo, I had to do an emergency acclimation, I floated while watching from a distance, I saw something wrong, really wrong with the Hippo, he was pounding the bag, continuously even while I was leaving the LFS, Ths fish looked calm & eating well for a few weeks at the LFS. In the aquarium floating I saw the end of his tail looking blood red, where it should of been yellow.I switched out water in small amounts and waited while watching from a distance, I did this in about 35 minutes, it was getting bad he was wired up like never so I just let him into the tank. It has been three days, he seems solid as ever, will keep an eye on him, hope ICK doesn't come around but I'll add some garlic extreme to his seaweed for a few weeks just to be safe.
 
Nick - here is the quote I was talking about. The only thing I wonder is how much things change with "breathable bags". Maybe a good thread for chemistry forum. Here you go:

Boomer said:
Fish in bags usually but not always die of hypoxia (lack of O2), even though the water is usually hyperoxic (supersaturated with O2). A fishes ventilation rate is a function of O2 in the water. The higher the O2 the lower the rate. Since the bag is hyperoxic the rate remains low and there is no adjust for internal chemistry problems, other than some dysfunction's of the Bohr and Root Effect, two physiological processes.

Bohr Effect; O2 bound up with hemoglobin which is released as needed.

Root Effect : The amount of O2 that can be stored or "banked" by respiration pigments at PaCO2 (Partial Pressure of arterial CO2)


As CO2 begins to build up in the bag and does not diffuse well through the bag there is an increase in the CO2
pressure gradient, between the bag and the fish. At some point, the CO2 in the bag begins to build
to the point where the fish has problems getting rid of his internal CO2. His blood begins to become
acid and adjustment are made to try and buffer the change in pH. In time this buffer effect fails
and you have acidosis. As this is taking place, oxygen pigments releases O2 . This releasing
continues and causes a shift in the Bohr effect (O2 combining curve,e.g.% hemoglobin O2 VS O2
partial pressure).This causes a decrease in the amount of O2 the pigments can hold a certain CO2
partial pressure (Root Effect). The fish is now hypercapnic. Some fish can increase their
ventilation rate in hypercapnic conditions and others can not. The O2 (pigments) often gets released
prematurely and can't store any in the pigments anymore, even though the water is hyperoxic...... he
dies from lack of O2 hypoxia, usually due to hypercapnic conditions.

There is a method to elevate this problem during shipping, with one draw back. The shipping method
is to use an organic/buffer TRISMA, which more or less cancels the nasties. The draw back is that
the buffer maintains the water at about a pH 8.2, which means any ammonia build up would be of the
more toxic form. However, after reading about all this a few years ago, I mentioned it to a large
marine fish distributor out of California and put him in contact with Patty Conway, a chemist at the
Sigma chemical corporation. Ted ordered some of the Trisma and had it sent to his overseas Pacific
suppliers (also his company) and was absolutely amazed at the results, in the reduction of shipping
moralities. He even went on to say that the fish required NO acclimation time, other than possible
temp.

Tris buffer is tris(hydroxymethyl)aminomethane. It's an inert organic
chemical with very powerful buffering capacity in the pH range fish need.
Sigma's trademarked name for it is Trizma. Sigma markets a product called
"Trizma, crystalline - fish grades", and suggest obtaining their Technical
Bulletin 106B which describes it. They offer pH 7.2 and 7.4 mixes for fresh
water fish, and a pH 8.3 mix for marine fish. I believe it is used in
concentrations of about 10 grams per gallon, and costs about 10 cents a
gram.

Sigma Chemical @ 800-325-3010.

Shipping fish with a drop or two of Methylene blue. MB is a light molecular organic/inorganic dye, that acts
somewhat similar to hemoglobin, in it ability to transport O2. The success of this can
easily be proven and I/we have done it many times, with keeping FW bait minnows over
night in containers. They are pretty much dead in the morning without it. There are also
some so-called modern "locked"/"target" buffers in the aquarium trade for 8.2, but they
still have a falling pH time, but using them is better than doing nothing with buffers,
especially with the addition of MB. And then there is MB antifungal, bacterial. parasite
properties/aides to the bagged fish. AND it ability to stop NO2 toxicity, although this
is a much greater problem in FW than SW

Some shippers also ship fish in Amquel, which also increases survival rates

In regards to acclimating the fish from a shipping bag, if the pH rises rapidly in the bag, there is the possibility that the H2CO3 in the blood is converted rapidly in large amounts to CO2. If that happened it would cause formation of CO2 bubbles in the blood and possibly death.

Boomer said:
As far as SG, someone else also brought that up, it doesn't change, how can it, unless the temp is lower or higher. The concern would be Salinity and such change in the bag is nil..........unless the bag is floating and the salinities are dif, in which case osmosis rules, but it should not be that great, unless the shipper is sending fish in a low salinity and the tank is high or visa-versa. And that bag would have to be floating for hours. Large dif in salinity can stress many fish, when dumped into a tank, causing them to over mucate. Also warmer tank water is better than colder tank water

Boomer said:
"But what you are saying is that high CO2 causes an decrase in the hemoglobin's affinity for O2."

In high O2 conditions the respiration rate in most fish is reduced, which is always accompanied by a higher PwCO2 in gill water. If the water is hypercapnic (more than normal CO2) the ventilation rate does not change but the fish needs more O2. So in short, hyperoxic conditions leads to acidosis of the blood due to high CO2. The fish needs more O2 and buffers to regulate blood chemistry but he runs out of buffers and to much of the O2 stored is released by "accident". He now does not have enough O2 and can't pick up anymore O2 as his "sensors" tell him there is plenty O2 in the water so don't increase the respiration rate. Some fish, very few can respond to these high CO2 levels and simply increase their respiration rate, thus they now are getting the O2 needed.
 
Okay...that makes sense. Its like hypoxic drive in humans suffering from congestive heart failure and/or emphysema.

Wow...totally derailed this thread. Sorry Weiser.

To get back on track...

You can also check out Cardinal fish...
The pyjama cardinals are cool, so are the Banggai Cardinals. Youc an look into different butterflies, but be careful as most of them are strict corals eaters...you dont want them in your reef, and they wont eat anything else. Copperbanded Butterflies are very popular and very hard to find one that is eating. ALOT of these fish die due to starvation.

HAwkfish....neat critters, entertaining to watch, but they will eat ornamental shrimp and crabs...so just keep that in mind if you want cleaner shrimp. Long nose hawks and flame hawks are very cool, and easy to keep.

Neon gobies....very small fish, also perform cleaner duties....not a good mix with hawkfish, however.

These are just a couple of suggestions...

Nick
 
Thanks guys I just had the LFS test my water and my nitrates were almost 0 so they replaced the tang for methey didnt have a kole so I took a mimic tang instead. thanks for all the great suggestions
 
also just a helpful suggestion if you are gonna want any smaller fish in the future i would get them first before getting any more tangs or larger fish, some tend to get very territorial. thats the way i went with my 75g i got 2 baby O. clowns and then got a lawnmower blenny, a 6 line wrasse, then my newest addition the rainford (court jester) goby
 
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