Where did the science go?

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DonW

R.I.P.
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Messages
8,751
Location
Tacoma, WA
Whoever took it just put it back and no questions will be asked.:)

This is a hobby called reefkeeping. Its a combonation of keeping ocean life in a box of water, science and deductive reasoning. Its not like building model airplanes where there is a specific set of instruction.

There is no miracle in a bucket, bottle or box. In order to succeed a person needs to educate themselves, there is no school for reefkeeping. Deductive reasoning seems to have gone by the wayside with the popularity of internet forums. Much like a spell checker we get lazy and really dont need to look at a dictionary. This becomes a serious problem when the guy that made the spell checker cant spell.

Do you need to be a scientist or some high IQ individule, NO. You do have to take the time to understand just what you are doing with the box of water. Right from the begining there are processes that need to be understood prior to even seting up a saltwater aquarium or reef tank. You cant setup a tank properly without understand the biological processes that are going to take place. You cant monitor the tank without test kits why would you even put water in a tank without knowing what your putting in the tank. If you understood the biological processes you most likely wouldnt. Today most are concerned with just getting water and rocks in the tank so that it can cycle, but dont even know what a cycle is or what it is doing. Terms like aerobic and anaerobic seem to foreign to most new reefkeepers when they should have a full understanding of them prior to ever putting water in the tank. Understanding these processes will mostly eliminate most of the simple problems that we see on a daily basis.

If its in your tank its there because YOU put it there wether it a single ppm of N or an aptasia. Being proactive when it comes to pest and nutrients is something that has also gone by the wayside with the need for speed and the almighty dollar. Were all adults and know about safe sex. What about safe reefkeeping? Live rock is one way we bring in pest. Do you actually need LR? Simply put the answer is NO, dead sterile rock is fine. Of course you will have to sacrafice time. There is plenty of room for a middle ground. You dont have to have a tank devoid of lower life forms to practice safe reefkeeping but again you will need patients.

The equipment can be a big concern for alot of people. Its expensive and this is an expensive hobby. If you dont have the resources then its not a hobby for you. There is absolutly no need to become an equipment junkie. If you took the time to learn about the biological processes taking place then you know that there is alot that is just plain NOT a necessity and purely luxury. Skimmers for example have come way down in price over the years, Deltec's hayday has past. Are big buck skimmers needed for the average reefer? NO, they are a luxury that affords you time between real hands on maintenance. If you find that you need more time but are lacking the big bucks for a better skimmer then go back and look at the biological processes and with a little deductive reasoning you will find an answer. You may not like the answer but at least it will be one that works for your tank. 9 out of 10 time its just a matter of getting rid of one or two fish that shouldnt be there in the first place.

Your live stock is another issue. Folks blindly purchasing LS because that nice guy at LFS says its ok. Most of the time he's the one that wrote the spellchecker and cant spell. Do the research before ever going to the store. Go back and think about the biological processes. Can your tank handle any more bioload with the current equipment and maintenace routine? What are you going to feed the new fish, what effect is that food going to have on everything else. If you are one of those people that buy on impulse then leave your debit card at home. If you see a fish you like then go home and do the research. There is more than one fish in the sea and if its a good fit there will always be another one.

I'm sure I could go on and on but you can easily see where I'm going, everything you do to and in your tank effects something and will always take you back to the science and reasoning. So if you skip learning the beginning science you will never understand your reef.

Don
 
The truth by all means, but..

I am one of the people who walked into a petstore to get cat food and saw the fish walked over to the guy cleaning the tanks and asked what i needed to set up a saltwater tank. And was told "cushed coral, and a undergravel filter" So went home read the peice of paper he gave me with info on setting up a saltwater tank then i set up my tank. Thinking i had all the info i need from the guy the WORKS at the petstore. The average person walks into a petstore thinking they know what they are talking about thats why they work at a pet store.

Well next time i go to the petstore to get more info i run into some one who also has a tank get to talking and find the wonderful wourld of fourms.

What i am saying is some people get off on the wrong foot, and try to fix there mistakes. Please dont be rude to the poeple that ask stupid questions because what happend to me may have happend to them too.

I am trying to fix my mistakes, i didnt know better and i am working with what i got and doing the best i can.

I wish i had known better then i wouldnt look like a fool for asking the qestions i have to ask because i was given the wrong information in the first place. believe me i know i look dumb and i dont like it but how do you learn with out asking for help?
 
as1720, you are far from the problem. He isn't talking about questions of which there are no foolish ones. He isn't talking about corrected mistakes nor even honest people who get suckered. I think the issue is denial over proven science and a plethora of fad-based ideas and fake products that attempt to put time in a bottle.

as1720, you are doing great and learning the science every day, keep up the good work
 
as1720, you are far from the problem. He isn't talking about questions of which there are no foolish ones. He isn't talking about corrected mistakes nor even honest people who get suckered. I think the issue is denial over proven science and a plethora of fad-based ideas and fake products that attempt to put time in a bottle.

as1720, you are doing great and learning the science every day, keep up the good work


Correct! There are many of us including myself that got into this hobby with a credit card on an impulse decision. Web forums were not around and information was hard to come by.
I'll be blunt and place as much blame on myself and other expeienced reefers. We hand out fixes without explanation to those that do not understand how a reef works.
There was a time that when someone had a N issue, good old Nikki (linki)would just post a link to an article explaining the bio processes. That info in itself was pure science. It either got the person thinking or overwhelmed and someone like Mojo would step in and put it in simple english terms we could all understand.
I'd like to use Krish as an example since he's easy going. Krish came here in 2004 with a disgusting tank and all the same beginner questions. IIRC he was using CC and his tank looked terrible. After spending most of his time in a midnight bs session with Jiddy he quickly aquired 10K post.:) Somewhere along the line he decided to learn about the science part of reefkeeping. I think that was a real turning point and his tank started looking better and better. Its obvious that you dont have to be a genius (nothing intended) but just an average person willing to learn.

Then there are those that choose to remain clueless and pass out bad information. This is a whole other topic and most know the abusers.


Don
 
Would somebody please stick this thread!!!! I have seen alot of good threads on here in my time, this may be the best.

Thanx Don.


Thats what I was thinking also. "this should be a big bold sticky somewhere".

Some of its not easy science either. I read ALOT before switching to SW. It still took over a year to fully comprehend the balance between Alk, Ca and Mg,
 
DonW, that is a great post.
I have to say I did a lot of research, at least I thought I did. For almost 2 years I did exactly what you said. I had a 210 AGA sitting in my living room with not one drop of water in it. I read and looked up as much as I thought I needed to understand about keeping some wet pets happy in my tank. When I finally put water into my tank I found out how little I still knew about what was going on in the tank. I was clueless. All the research I did, did not prepare me for what I was doing because it all looked good on paper but in reality it was a whole different fish tank. I for one am thankful for this website.
 
Fantastic thread, Don. There are so many ways this thread can go in regards to discussion....so many different topics that would fit into this, as you've noted in the initial post.

There is no miracle in a bucket, bottle or box. In order to succeed a person needs to educate themselves, there is no school for reefkeeping. Deductive reasoning seems to have gone by the wayside with the popularity of internet forums. Much like a spell checker we get lazy and really dont need to look at a dictionary. This becomes a serious problem when the guy that made the spell checker cant spell.

Amen. IMO, part of the problem is the way society is today. Hell, look at the diet industry....everything is a quick fix, but for the majority of folks, it comes down to what goes into your mouth, and what is being burned off. The same can apply to our tanks. Inputs and exports. Back to basics. Maybe I'm just getting old. Everyone is in a hurry for results, and picking up that bottle of Purple Up has to make the coralline grow, right?? I mean, the bottle does say PURPLE.


DonW said:
The equipment can be a big concern for alot of people. Its expensive and this is an expensive hobby. If you dont have the resources then its not a hobby for you. There is absolutly no need to become an equipment junkie. If you took the time to learn about the biological processes taking place then you know that there is alot that is just plain NOT a necessity and purely luxury. Skimmers for example have come way down in price over the years, Deltec's hayday has past. Are big buck skimmers needed for the average reefer? NO, they are a luxury that affords you time between real hands on maintenance. If you find that you need more time but are lacking the big bucks for a better skimmer then go back and look at the biological processes and with a little deductive reasoning you will find an answer. You may not like the answer but at least it will be one that works for your tank. 9 out of 10 time its just a matter of getting rid of one or two fish that shouldnt be there in the first place.

I really like being an equipment junkie! Do we have group therapy for that? I remember back when I got my skimmer. New and shiny acrylic. I pictured myself as the kid from "A Christmas Story" rubbing the leg lamp, except I wanted to put my skimmer in the window all lit up (instead of the fragile leg lamp), so my neighbors would see it from the sidewalk.


I wish i had known better then i wouldnt look like a fool for asking the qestions i have to ask because i was given the wrong information in the first place. believe me i know i look dumb and i dont like it but how do you learn with out asking for help?

Don't worry about looking dumb, because it isn't going to happen. The fact that you ask shows you care, and are willing to learn. One thing I was always passionate about was helping people to learn all the pros and cons to a topic, so they are better able to make their own decision. Even if that means I have to answer from the otherside of a debate. Sometimes a disagreement is the best way to increase your knowledge on a topic. Being mature in the face of that disagreement will aid in everyone's learning experience. I didn't want to have to spoon feed the answers because a lot of people don't learn this way. I know I don't. Understanding the various processes of our closed systems can feel overwhelming. There are alot of processes going on. Some people don't realize that once the initial cycle is over, it really isn't over. It is something that continues through the life of the system.

Anyway, great topic. I can't wait to see where this thread goes. I'm not sure if I was just rambling, but I hope it makes sense!

BTW - thanks Don for bringing up the "linki" remark! I haven't heard that in a long time. It is inspiring me to try and find some more good articles again.
 
BTW - thanks Don for bringing up the "linki" remark! I haven't heard that in a long time. It is inspiring me to try and find some more good articles again.


If it wasn't for some of the links that you have posted in the past, there are alot of folks, myself included, that found out that reading wasn't a lost art.
You speak of instant gratification, and quick fixes!!!! I know for a fact that at least 3 of the folks that have replied to this thread once had beautiful systems that for one reason or another just flat crashed, leaving the owner to pick up the pieces not even having any clue as to what the hell happened. I also know that those people have either rebuilt, or just flat started over, building something even nicer.
I guess what I am getting at is, never ever think that just because your stuff is looking great, disaster could be just around a turn, Stay ahead of the game and do more research than you are good for. In the long run, it will pay off somewhere down the road.
 
Great thread. It all started when nano's became popular imo. All in one, small, easy to do (LFS BS sales) reef aquariums. Next thing you know the forums are flooded with people wanting to know how many fish they can fit in there and why the sand bottom is covered in red slimy stuff.
 
And so easy to practice the concept of not needing to know anything...
ostridge.jpg
 
Wow Don, what a great thread!! You're absolutely correct. I was one who got into this hobby on a whim...well kinda. It was something I'd wanted to do for a very long time, but didn't do much research. Luckily, I had a few local friends to guide me along the way, mainly Barbie, before I started. Also, I was blessed by having found this forum BEFORE starting. I still had a lot to learn.

As I've studied and researched, I've learned so much. Thanks to this forum, and members such as Don, I've learned a lot about chemistry. Don, you've been very patient and helpful with me throughout the past couple of years and I want to say Thank You!!
 
I agree, Herefishyfishy. Part of the problem, as I mentioned before, are the quick fixes. "Just tell me what I need to put in my tank to fix it". I applaud the folks that come on here looking for the quick fix, actually listen to the advice given, and learn to learn (if that makes sense). Reading the information provided, taking in all points, whether it was what they wanted to hear or not, and then continue on to help other people. That is what makes this place so great.

I don't know. What do you guys think about the industry as a whole? Do you think it has changed to accomodate folks that are looking for a quick fix? Do you think the industry is advancing for the better? Especially since it was pointed out about the nano systems. That was a good point - these are easy all-in-one units. Like the one infomercial says, "set it and forget it".

Thoughts....
 
I don't know. What do you guys think about the industry as a whole? Do you think it has changed to accommodate folks that are looking for a quick fix? Do you think the industry is advancing for the better? Especially since it was pointed out about the nano systems. That was a good point - these are easy all-in-one units. Like the one infomercial says, "set it and forget it".

I was told one time by one of the people that started this board, the more is always better. That way you learn how to deal with the aspects of a larger system. The larger system is more stable because of the water volume. I don't think he was a big fan of nano systems!!!!!! If you learned the larger system, then you could try the smaller, nano system, as it would be more difficult, because of the water volume, and the swings that would occur.
I think the industry as a whole is improving, equipment is better, works more efficiently. Unfortunately the cost is up!!! JMHO
These little systems allow more folks to experience the saltwater hobby. But, if you are new to the hobby, I think that you will have more problems because of dealing with the constant water parameter swings that seem to occur with these.

This make any sense????
 

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