Discussion of th Week ~ Phosphates~

[mojoreef]

Mary you can soak your flakes also, its a bit messy but the fish usually dont mind it to much. Flake food is really a bad choice in most cases, is thier a reason you need to use it??
Lets see if we can break down your problem and solve it. By saying you have P issues I am imagining that you have tested and have levels?? if so that is telling you that your system is so saturated with the organic form f P that it can bind no more and is making it available for algae and such to jump on it. Using carbon is Ok (although it has some cons to when used alot) but in reality it is but a bandade. We must find where it lives or is coming from and then kill it thier. First lets find out where you are seeing the results of to much P. Do you algae or cyano and where is it starting from, LR, sand, glass ????

On a side note Sprungs Phosban is it alluminium or iron based, see if the jar says.

MIke

 

[Montanarocknreefer]

Well I use alot of "Home made Mush" in my reef system as the main source of food.

I have not used it in awhile and noticed algae becoming less of a problem.

I have using some frozen mysis shrimp and another type that is green that the LFS makes up with all the vitamins in it and really like it.

I plan to buy some more raw shrimp, scallops, clams, etc to make more mush but I believe as well this stuff needs to be thoroughly washed and rinsed before making it into mush.

It is very potent and only use it twice a week in my tank. I also use IO salt and always have.

My biggest concern to this point is a DSB. I have a DSB of 5-6" in my 80 gallon reef tank and I know there will come a time when I will have to take it out of there! Not looking forward to that at all!
Smell should be just great!

Great thread Mike! Your always coming up with something for us to think about and improve our chances with our systems!

 

[Maryrosi]

Thanks for the reply Mike! I have used the flake food alternating with frozen. I started to soak it in the RO/DI water too and am using the Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef flake food. Yes, I did do a test and it was .02. The algea is on the LR, glass and I eve have some hair algae that has collected in my Monti Cap. I have to clean my glass daily and it almost looks like a dust that flows in the water as I run my magnet along the glass. Small bubbles are starting to form on the LR and even on the sand bed at times. When I Turkey baste them to blow them off, the rise to the surface, but I also noticed that when my or my husbands arm is in the tank, bubbles attach to the arm too. Odd! Never seen that before! Some cyano is starting on the LR in places. Looking at Sprungs container, I don't see anything that says what base it is. I even looked on the Two Little Fishies site to see if they had any more stats on their products.I plan on starting a water change weekly, blowing off the rock a few times a day, and have been running my Magnum with a filter to pick up what is floating in the water. I even have to blow the clams shells off, since I see a brown-red substance collecting on them along with some bubbles. Should I stop the flake food ASAP? I dropped my DT feedings from twice weekly to once every other week. I also thought of using my Python to vacuum up the top layer of my two inch SB. I see it forming a layer on that now too.
Thanks ahead for any help that you can offer.
Mary

 

[j.stagner]

Has anyone in Seattle or the surrounding areas tested whether the tap water contains any significant level of phosphate? I am simply curious, as I know a good RO/DI system will remove it, but many people just getting into the hobby will not have one of these.

 

[mojoreef]

Hi Mary. on the prime reef it contains about 900 ppm per sample so it is a source of P. Are you suck with this food or can we replace it with something a little less P bound.
n the bubbles It looks like you are in a bit of an algae bloom and the bubbles are probibly just co2 being produced by he differing algae forms.
I assume that the sample you took was from the water column, so lets get a little bit deeper and try to see if thier is a source that is generating it. On the live rock, take your syringe and take a water sample from a spot that has the hair algae, just push p against the rock but from with in the algae. Then do another test on the pore water in the sand, stick the syringe just inside the sand and scoop a sample, then test it. this should give us a peek at what is going on in the tank its self.
For right now lets just check things out and then we can put a plan of attack together.

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

JOhnny Good post buddy. On the frozen mysis and simular you must watch for preservatives. On the mush, all seafood contains P. the fisherman ue a P spray right in the boat to perserve the moisture of the fish or whatever, it also keeps the color looking fresh. dont worry about washing the food just blend it up as normal and freeze it it cubes. When you go to defrost it, do so in RO/DI water. then stir the mush in the water after it has defrosted and allow it to sit for a bit. Then take the mush and strain it through a net. then inot the tank it goes. Sitting in the ro/di water will break the organic bond and put the P into the water as inorganic form. going through the net and the fluid being tossed will export a ton of the P that was in the food. Again as you said it is a concitrated food and I would only go once a day with enough to just feed your fish. Thier waste will take care of the others.

j.stagner another good post. Citys use P in the water systems to clean and disolve calcium scaling on pipes, so it is almost a garrantee evey water system has it. RO/DI is a good method for eliminating it at that source for sure.

Mike

 

[Maryrosi]

Mike, that food can be replaced with whatever helps the tank and issue's at hand. Any food that you suggest will replace what I have now. I might be going to the LFS this evening, so if you have any suggestions before I go, I'll check back here to see if what you recommend and pick it up when I go, if they carry it.
As for the tests, I'll do them this evening too and post them.
BTW, what do you feed your tank?
We just changed the filter in one of the chambers in the RO/DI unit and I'm going to order replacements for the other chambers. That certainly can't hurt and may be another plan of attack!

 

[mojoreef]

Mary I just use a blender mush, pretty close to the one Johnny discribed. Mine is prawns, scallops and some salmon, I mix in some selcon vitamins to.


Mike

 

[Maryrosi]

Ok Mike! As I thought, the phosphates are coming from the sandbed! You're a genious in tracking problems!!!! Tested the water near the Monti where some hair algae is and it's 0.1
Tested the water extracted from the LSB with a syringe and it tested 0.5.
I'm going to do a water change here in a few and use my python to vacuum the top layer. In the low flow area, I see some cyano starting to accumulate! It's our own fault for not doing a water change sooner! When I had it before, water changes and sucking it off the sand bed with a turkey baster helped, along with more water movement near the LSB.
Should I remove the carbon and/or the phosban?
I look forward to seeing what you suggest to do from here!
Thanks for the comments, suggestions and concerns!

 

[mojoreef]

Mary hold off on the water change. lets go after where it lives. Ok first the sand. What you have is a bunch of P locked up in a P cycle, going from algae to bacteria then back again. What we need to do is to break that cycle and do some exporting. Sand beds can not deal with P. Ok get you syphon out and hook the other end to a bucket, BUT put in some floss (or simular) on top of the bucket to filter the water you are syphoning. Your going to need something (fingers if you want) to stir in the sand down about a good inch. DO it in a manner to get the detritus out of the sand. if you use you finger grind the sand a bit as you go through it. syphon up anything that comes out. Keep doing this until you get all the exposed sand. What this will do is to remove fdetritus and all the algae and bacteria associated with it (a good thing). it should give the sand a bit of a break for awhile but get used to it if you want the sand.
On the LR, get your baster r a small PH and give them a good blast, trying to aim the crude to you overflow box and out of the tank.
Water changes are OK but thier not going to do anything for the sand or LR. they will just dillute whats in the water. Also depending on what salt mix you use it could make it worse..
Leave the phosban and the carbon in (make sure the carbon is still good) it will help catch and deal with what you dont get.


Mike

 

[TDEVIL]

looks like i will be changing my food back to mush

i generally feedformula two, but i think that will stop, i will get the stuff for the mush asap

thanks

TD

 

[Curtswearing]

I definately prefer mush to prepared foods because of this issue.

 

[Maryrosi]

Water changes are OK but thier not going to do anything for the sand or LR. they will just dillute whats in the water. Also depending on what salt mix you use it could make it worse..

Mike

Thanks for your help again Mike! It was in the back of my mind and had to ask what you mean by the salt could make it worse!?! Any certain kinds that you are referring to? If so, what kinds?

 

[mojoreef]

Hi Mary. with salt mixes your going to get salts that either have high levels of nitrogen or high levels of Phosphates. its just the nature of the beast. So yes in some cases when you are waterchanging to get rid of P you may be just swaping old P for new P. I have to find my links to the P levels in salts they got changed around. one that I do remember for sure is Tropic Marine. I will see if I can dig it up.

Mike

 

[Maryrosi]

Please do! I just got info on Tropic Marin as a good salt from a few people and would be most interested in seeing that info. I've used IO and wanted to switch brands and sure would like your input before I do switch!

 

[mojoreef]

Mary I can find the original charts, but I did find some stuff from Craig Bingmans testing on a bunch of salt brands. Here are the results as it pertains to Phosphates

Instant ocean = very low, below NSW
Reef Crystals = higher then NSW
Coralife = extremely high content
Tropic Marin = extremely high content
Red sea = higher then NSW
Kent = equal to NSW
Seachem = lower then NSW
Marinemix hw = alot more then nsw but not as bas as TM or CL
Any reason you changing salts????

hope it helps.


Mike

 

[Maryrosi]

Thanks Mike!!! I've been using IO for a couple years. Of course in this hobby we are always trying to improve our tanks, and keeping SPS and clams , I'm looking for ways to make the best SW I can for them, amongst other things. I think with all the info floating around about salt lately has put a bug up my arse to change for something better. Being that I had phosphates in my sand and LR, I'm looking to get rid of it and not gain ANY!!! Tropic Marin was the one that I was leaning towards. As always, I respect your knowledge and info!!! Thanks again!

 

[4DTEK]

Always a day late and a dollar short! I just ordered a 200 gal pail of TM Pro Reef today, and I just found this thread. I don't have the option for NSW at my location, so I have to use someones salt. I didn't see any reference to Oceanic, just curious how that tested. There is a pretty good bashing going on @ RC, regarding O.

Just tried this link www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp

It could not be found. :?:

 

[bc_slc]

i was going to ask the same thing. How does Oceanic stack up? Anyone with input?

 

[bradreef]

wow started reading this thread and then realized how old it was. Mike you were a genius even a year ago. Eric Borneman was here two months ago and was talking about how he was going to do a test of all the brands of salt. Wonder if he has yet.