A look at the dreaded "P" word
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steveweast
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Where coldwater tanks are concerned now, isn't it much harder to come across algae issues when temperature is kept in these lower ranges?? I believe I've read that somewhere here...You go cold and never have to deal with nuicance algae. Can that be confirmed?
That is so wrong. Nuisance algae is a huge issue not only in a cold tank, but also in the wild.
Due to the nature of a cold tank (heavy feeding, slow bacterial metabolism, and little natural N & P reduction), algae can really boom. We do have the ultimate weapon against it though....light. A cold tank needs only enough light for the viewer.....so.....limit the light and you limit the algae. If you don't, algae will kill everything off in the tank by smothering it.
When I dive off our coast, the first 20 ft or so, is dominated by nuisance algae....or kelp covered in nuisance algae. Get below that....where light is more limited, and the world colors up to what you see in my tank. My tank is more a biotope of 80 - 100 ft deep than 0 - 20 ft.
It's easier to control the algae by limiting light than by any other means. I've even grown kelp to see how that would work...it can be done....but, it's way too much work for me. I just light my tank with a few LED's....it might be considered moon lighting with white lights by SPS standards......but, I only need to wipe the glass once or twice a month (and nothing gets over run with algae). Nitrate is really more of an issue. Certain critters (like strawberry anemones) start to melt down above 30 ppm.
steveweast
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Glad to see somethings never change. Still drinking your meals.
Krish
RF STAFF
Ahh...So that's what it was. I knew it was something someone posted here about coldwater tanks and not having algae issues and for some reason thought it had to do with the temp. Thanks for clarifying.
OldFishMan
Well-known member
Phosphates are needed by living cells and are everywhere in the environment. I have checked my fresh mixed water and found none. I have some in my tank and use phos-ban, for removal. The addition of lime water (Kalkwasser) binds phosphates.
Further reading: Phosphates in Marine Aquarium Systems
OFM
Further reading: Phosphates in Marine Aquarium Systems
OFM
Rhodes19
Well-known member
Great write up Mike. Thanks.
Maxx
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Mike,
Ive seen you mention you prefer using GAC and ozone & your skimmer to remove inorganic P from your system as opposed to GFO to do it.
Why is that?
Everytime I've considered Ozone for my system, Boomer scares the crap out of me with all his discussion about nitric acid and all the other ways it can go wrong. What is the mechanism of phosphate removal with ozone? Obviously it breaks a molecular bond with the phosphate, but how does it keep the bond from reforming?
What would be an ideal set up for P removal regarding ozone and some of the newer methods of removing P such as bio pellets?
Which form of P shows up on tests, Organic or Inorganic? Or is it both? For some reason I was always under the impression that only Inorganic P showed up in tests since the organic was almost always quickly(almost instantly) taken up by other life in the tank, (bacteria etc).
Thanks Mike,
Nick
Ive seen you mention you prefer using GAC and ozone & your skimmer to remove inorganic P from your system as opposed to GFO to do it.
Why is that?
Everytime I've considered Ozone for my system, Boomer scares the crap out of me with all his discussion about nitric acid and all the other ways it can go wrong. What is the mechanism of phosphate removal with ozone? Obviously it breaks a molecular bond with the phosphate, but how does it keep the bond from reforming?
What would be an ideal set up for P removal regarding ozone and some of the newer methods of removing P such as bio pellets?
Which form of P shows up on tests, Organic or Inorganic? Or is it both? For some reason I was always under the impression that only Inorganic P showed up in tests since the organic was almost always quickly(almost instantly) taken up by other life in the tank, (bacteria etc).
Thanks Mike,
Nick
Somethings Fishy
Well-known member
hey great article, appreciate the informative articles that you have written in the past as well.
1guydude
Well-known member
good stuff....i also didnt know that phosphates were good, just thought they were bad and supposed to be at 0....mine kinda sits at .25ppm on both tanks?!?! Is that okay?
Also how should i test my foods for phophates.....de-thaw it in some water and test the water?
Steve I would love to see some pics of the DT! Ive been thinking about doing a pacific NW tank! Sounds like aglae is a problem in cold tanks though =(
Also how should i test my foods for phophates.....de-thaw it in some water and test the water?
Steve I would love to see some pics of the DT! Ive been thinking about doing a pacific NW tank! Sounds like aglae is a problem in cold tanks though =(
Maxx
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1guydude,
That's exactly how you test your food for Phosphates. Thaw it in some RODi water, (your tapwater might have P in it already which would skew your test results).
Its also the best way to limit putting Phosphates in your tank.
Nick
That's exactly how you test your food for Phosphates. Thaw it in some RODi water, (your tapwater might have P in it already which would skew your test results).
Its also the best way to limit putting Phosphates in your tank.
Nick
Does norma use of kalkwasser bind phosphates? I thought you needed high levels of calcium hydroxide (at the level where there is undisolved calcium hydroxide as well as elevated pH) to bind up the phosphate.
I just dont like the thought of dosing metal Max. I also dont trust the small particles that come of Ferric oxide. For me I use Ozone in conjunction with the skimmer for a couple of reasons. The air used for the stone is a decent way to get the ozone to dissolve into the water. Once their its a destroyer, it wil take out everything from whole organics, to algal cells, bacteria and other simular things, it also breaks down (oxidizes) long chain proteins (which biological filtration cant do) and allows them to be easily removed by the skimmer itself (basically greatly broadens the range of things the skimmer can remove). It also reduces biological oxygen demand on the tank which in turn helps you keep a very healthy oxygen level in your system. The GAC is basically a polisher for me.
So for me it boils down to a concept when dealing with it, I will concede that if phosphate enters the tank in a dissolved form its going to be taken up faster then I could ever remove it. So I cant win their so I look to the next step in the chain, ie: the things that take it up, which are mostly bacteria and algal spores/cells. Then I look at undisolved forms, as in the food I put in, and the detritus that contains it (we could get into sand and rock but lets leave them out) so What I need to deal with is bacteria, algal cells, detritus and left over food. From their I do what I can with flow to get these things to my skimmer, once their I oxidize the crap out of them and then skim out the remains and then one last shot thought the carbon to knock down any chance of ozone byproducts or micro particles of the above that may get through.
Yea but he is a closet ozone user, lol he even talked Randy into using it and he still does to this date.
The way I mentioned above is what works for me and has for decades. The pellet systems seem to be looking decent also, if you do a search on them I have written a few things up on how they work also.
inorganic orthophosphate
Mojo
No it could treat the tank, if you had the kalk dripping near the out put pump from a sump say, alot of water would become local as it flowed past?? To put the process into laymans terms look at it like this. The P wants to bind to the Calcium, it does, then the alk wants to bind with the calcium it does, but once it does it looks to precipitate out of solution when in an area where satruation is. Ie the drip area of Kalk.
It would redissolve when the ph goes low enough to make is soluable again, so like in a calcium reactor? Sand bed?? or deep in a LR.
Mojo
It would redissolve when the ph goes low enough to make is soluable again, so like in a calcium reactor? Sand bed?? or deep in a LR.
Mojo
I am surprised it would be that low. I would have expected (because of the phosphate) that the re-disolving would have occurred at a pH somplace in the "8's".
But then again, I have always disliked chemistry.
P.S. I have referred the question to a saltwater-chemistry PhD student of my aquaintance.
But then again, I have always disliked chemistry.
P.S. I have referred the question to a saltwater-chemistry PhD student of my aquaintance.
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Yea I hate chemistry to, lol Just sitting here waiting for Boomer to jump in and beat me up, lol
The way to look at it is that bacteria and their creation of biofilm and the other enzymes they use can change the environment and thus the PH of a localized area in a heart beat. So if their was P present in or on a surface they would begin reducing the material and creating conditions that would allow them to get at it. Thats why its tough to do after the fact unless you can find a way to export the bacteria. If you look at the peice of equipment listed above all it is is a device that creates an environment for facultative bacteria to live, but in our tanks we do have an abundance of that already in the form or LR and LS.
Mojo
The way to look at it is that bacteria and their creation of biofilm and the other enzymes they use can change the environment and thus the PH of a localized area in a heart beat. So if their was P present in or on a surface they would begin reducing the material and creating conditions that would allow them to get at it. Thats why its tough to do after the fact unless you can find a way to export the bacteria. If you look at the peice of equipment listed above all it is is a device that creates an environment for facultative bacteria to live, but in our tanks we do have an abundance of that already in the form or LR and LS.
Mojo
jb4fun
Member
Would running a bear bottom tank greatly reduce the amount of p released into the tank
