A question of ethics

[Mr.Firemouth]

I have recently read threads one after another on fragging for profit and dismissed this as an aberration of the hobby. However, more and more I find myself thinking about why we are keeping the corals we keep.

I feel I find myself seeing more and more people choosing the corals they choose because of resell value rather than because it is a coral they will enjoy.

For example, I had discussions about this brain coral with several people and the synopsis was that I wasn't going to be able to get my money back out of it if I was able to buy it.

Before these conversations all I was thinking about was "WOW! What an awesome show piece that would be in my tank!" I never once considered ever selling it or part of it! Yes, there are many corals(mainly soft and SPS) that Fishman and I resell as frags. However, these corals are easily propagated and are not specifically show pieces. When the mention of this corals resale value was mentioned I was like"WTF, are you talking about?!!!" I felt like people have lost touch with the fragging craze of why we are in the hobby. Has prices and profits made us lose sight of our what are tanks are for?

Also, don't become confused or lost in what I am getting at here. I believe in propagation, prop systems, frags for trade, and YES frags for sale. I am even adding (3) 15g prop tanks to my system. It is motives I am talking about here. Recently a person ran a post "getting out of the hobby" and all his stuff was for sale. Now he has a bigger system and even more corals! Was that thread a sales ploy? I wonder?

My intentions for the frag/prop system is for when colonies are damaged and need to be separated, for when colonies are too large and need trimming, and one tank will be for a algae fuge with big 'Ol Brutus in it.

Believe me, I have the room, the tanks , and recently a commercial website to sell frags, but I am not comfortable with going that route. It is extra work that I personally don't have the time(or support from those near me) to sustain properly. So I opted to cancel the web page(a waste of $800) and just keep my hobby a hobby. My fish room is extensive as it is, so chopping corals from the wholesaler for profit would of been a logistical PITA for me.

With that said, that is my exact point of this post. My own temptation to buy box lots of corals and chop them up for the money, not the hobby.
So, I put forth this question....
Does anyone else feel the way that I do? Is the hobby becoming all about money?
Frag swaps are fine. Online sales and trades are fine. But wholesaling corals for slice and dice is starting to make me wonder if this what we really want it to become?

What are everyone else's thoughts?

 

[danno14]

I concur and cheer your post on!
Regards, Dan

 

[spongebob lover]

i agree with you dood .
Sometimes people think way to much about the money and less about the fun and the beauty this hobby has/gives.
I can't believe the money people ask for corals :shock:....jesus pretty soon we're all gonna be asking for bank loans over a coral :lol:.
oohh well the way to go for me, it's by waiting until the coral goes down in value even if it takes lots of waiting

 

[Curtswearing]

Rich,

There have been a few times where I purposely purchased a coral to chop for profit. However, the goal of the proceeds was not really business-related. It might have been to help pay for a new piece of equipment, a rare coral I couldn't afford otherwise, etc.

Even at the LFS I'm working at, I'm doing something similar. I saw a great price on tubastrea (Sun Polyps) and I ordered them in. My intention is to train them to be open during the day and then sell them at much higher prices as day-trained corals. Is this to make higher profits for the store? Most certainly. However, I intend to use those profits to keep increasing the quality of the livestock for both display purposes as well as for sale.

 

[Snowboarda42]

Every coral in my tank is either donated by a fellow person, or sold at such a low price (I bought $300 worth coral from ClassClown for $50), I figure I will either sell some back at the same low price, or donate back. I think that is what makes this hobby a hobby. From the begging I think we all knew that this was going to cost a lot of money. But using the route of giving, trading, etc., you have not only made friends with someone into the same hobby as yourself, but you continue to make the hobby just that, a hobby. Not a business.

All things aside, I still support my LFS, and still buy frags from it (KevinPo's shop) because he has always been way more than informative, given me good advice, good prices, etc. So in his case, I have absolutely no problems buying frags from him, because I know it's almost 100% profit and will help keep his store up and running, and help to build the customer-business relationship that most of us look for in a LFS.

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

Curt! Where ya been? Ain't seen ya in a while. We will have to hook up and you will have to stop by and check the fishroom out! Are you working at Planet Reef? I love that place!

Snowboard, you and Curt are referring to LFS situations which have overhead, employees salaries, etc. That is fine. I am referring to the majority of reefers I am encountering at the trade shows, frag swaps, and club meetings that are becoming more and more interested in the money they can get from basement farming rather than how/why we got tanks in the first place! I talk with hundreds of Reefers daily with all the sites I contribute to. There is a movement to propagate at home which is fine, however, I am just questioning our motives. Is the money really that important? I mean people are converting display tanks into 100% frag systems and becoming more utilitarian about their set-ups rather than about aquascapes.

My goal in this post, which I have listed on various forums, is just to remind people that we have aquariums, not biological assembly lines.

There is an attitude that is forming in the hobby also, about defending the frag market and high prices. This thread inspired my soap box position...
http://www.club-zoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5386

We need to always remember this is a hobby, were friends, corals, and community is most important.

 

[Damsel13]

Thanks for posting. When your name is important I think it is completely right to protect it. I just learned something thanks Mr. Firemouth.

 

[Scooterman]

To be simple, I'm in this hobby for many reasons, one I enjoy helping others when I can, another, I love the beautiful colors of fish & corals, I love the equipment design, build, the learning of each individual coral, fish, the needs, the challenge of keeping them, growing them, thriving reef is my goal. The things I hate about this hobby is what the effects of me & everyone has on our natural reefs, everyone has to start somewhere & the population of reefers grows every day & is growing faster each day, all learning & not purposely destroying life. Every chance we can give back is a small blessing, I wish we could all give back successfully & lessen the impact on reefs throughout the world. The more we can grow, share & spread the knowledge to others the more we can give back to the oceans reef. I hope yea to be able to sell some frags, maybe help me pay some equipment & stuff, & my hats off to anyone the can grow & propagate many many coral to sell at a profit & help reduce the amount of corals stolen from our beloved reefs, how can anyone question that. Regardless of what other reef impacts there are, at least our community of reefers are doing a small part in trying to appreciate our natural reefs & preserve what we have.

 

[Reefergeorge]

I would much rather buy a frag or prop coral than take it off of a reef.

 

[Damsel13]

Lot's to think about.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

OMHO, whatever gets more corals in the world in lieu of less corals is AOK with me. The reefs have lost 20-25 % in the last two decades due to bleaching. My tank is a little propogation zoo and will NEVER pay for itself. My only gripe is the morons who buy from the wild and kill it with the aim of getting rich. That is fairly rare.

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

I agree Scooter, that is why I promote propagation. What I am referring to is people who are buying boxes of corals or colonies just to chop them, not grow them out and propagate them. There is a trend forming that is greed driven. I wanted people to be aware of it.
Propagating corals is growing the colonies out over a period of 6 months to a year and then fragging it to share, trade, or sell, or even start new colonies in a prop system.
Chopping corals for the cash is what is disturbing me. Especially when the colony cost say $20 and the 6 frags cost $25 and up on auction and threads thru out the Internet. It is not uncommon for choppers to flip corals for 5-7 times their original cost. Take the frags that we sell at shows and swaps. We grow them out over 3-4 month periods and only ask $10 a frag and $20 if it is something like Armour of the God or other coral selling for per polyp price. We still sell the frag with upto 10 polyps for the $10-$20 price. The funds replace inventory and support Uberfrags. Just like an LFS, it is a commercial venture.

I am discussing more of the hobby side. Look at E-Bay! Aqua-Bid, Reef Centrals for sale boards, etc. There are many guys pumping corals out. The pics of their tanks show that they are complete frag set-ups.

I'm not condemning them, I am just saying this is a hobby. Take that above thread referenced, she posted the pics the next day and that was cool. However, she also snapped up those Paypal payments right away too!!!!
Where was the time to heal and regrow? It takes at least 2 months to regenerate from that cutting. That is why I think things might be going too far. Maybe I am wrong.

One last point. These guys buy tons of wild populations from the wholesalers to chop up. The amount of sales slowing down at the wholesalers is not even worth noticing and there are more collection stations being built each month. Hence the new lines of Aussie corals! Some guys order aquacultured which is a plus, but wild stocks still get shipped in. Fragging and aquaculture is helping but there is still a large demand from the oceans.

 

[JoshF]

This is an interesting thread, and it seems that there are several things blurred together in the original post.

1) Buying wild colonies and fragging for a profit.

2) Having someone (Calfo in this case) frag a coral and use the known name to hype it, then sell the coral before it heals

3) Sustainable coral aquaculture (Tyree for example.)

I'm a big supporter of the last one, not the least for the reasons that others have mentioned (reduced stress on the reefs, corals better acclimated to aquarium conditions, etc.) However, the name aquaCULTURE implies the growing or farming of coral in captivity, not merely using our tanks as a holding station for wild stock that is then "fragged" out.

I've been involved in aquaria since I was a kid, and reefs for the last 8 years. My current plans are to start a propagation set-up to grow coral. For a profit even! I plan to use completely aquacultured coral as the mother colonies, take frags periodically, then grow those small frags out until they are healthy, robust, and stable. Then I'll sell them for a modest return.

Hype has gone completely crazy in the hobby, as have fads. Like any commodity, price follows the "law" of supply and demand. So, when EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE "X" coral, the price goes insane. I see $80-$200 frags of some corals and it makes me sad. I know that some of these corals grow incredibly slowly and there simply aren't a lot of them around and so the price is high. Sometimes it's just some punk trying to cash in on the bank he sees when (s)he looks in his/her tank.

Anyway, when I got into this hobby I was given my first aquarium, built my first filters, paid retail for lights and pumps, and got livestock as gifts from members of the Bay Area Reef Enthusiasts (the club I was a member of at the time.) We held our meetings at a local store, bought some corals from the store, traded others, had fragging parties occasionally, and everyone was happy.

I still see a lot of that locally (Seattle area) and people share and trade and frag their corals for reasonable prices.

Anyway, I just think that there's people who are looking for quick cash and are willing to exploit the wild stock and reefs, and others who are looking to create a sustainable future for the hobby and maybe make a bit of a living by doing so. So far no one has gotten rich off of aquaculturing corals! :lol:

Just my few cents.

Josh

P.S. Just to be clear, I'm not trashing LFS selling wild corals, etc. It's just not my thing, and with the concern over the long-term health of the reef I think that it is quite possible that wild corals will not be available for the hobby forever.

 

[JoshF]

It looks like Firemouth posted while I was typing! Damn this Sunday-morning-tired-slow-typing-thingy! I totally agree with what you said!

Josh

 

[spongebob lover]

well there's an (not so local ) lfs that sells corals for a very very reasonable place which i wouldn't mind paying because of the way i see how they take care of the store.
But now what the heck are people thinking asking 100s for just a 1/4" 1/2" of a coral that's just nuts.
ohh well i don't think we can change people's ideas because no matter what there's always gonna be someone who's looking after the money, but it's sad that all we can see is $$$ in a coral :doubt:

 

[Jim Hart]

People are people, don't put principals before personalities, we all have motives and needs. Id like to think that when the seas are no longer able to support the coral life, some of us will have the only examples of how it used to be, the only difference is they will be in little (in comparison to the oceans) pods in our living quarters. That will be a sad day.

 

[spongebob lover]

People are people, don't put principals before personalities, we all have motives and needs. Id like to think that when the seas are no longer able to support the coral life, some of us will have the only examples of how it used to be, the only difference is they will be in little (in comparison to the oceans) pods in our living quarters. That will be a sad day.

ohh boy i hope that doesn't happen .

vote for Al Gore .

 

[Curtswearing]

Curt! Where ya been? Ain't seen ya in a while. We will have to hook up and you will have to stop by and check the fishroom out! Are you working at Planet Reef? I love that place!

Yeah, I'm temporarily managing Planet Reef. To say it's been a challenge would be an understatement. Everywhere I turn, there's something that was plumbed wrong, wired wrong, or just plain 'ole wrong just for wrong's sake. However, I've identified all areas that need to be fixed, I've prioritized them, and I'm checking them off one by one.

I mean people are converting display tanks into 100% frag systems and becoming more utilitarian about their set-ups rather than about aquascapes.

Here's where we have to be careful. Jim Craig has had many, many frag tanks since before people have had frag tanks. Not only that, he's sold many a frag over the years. To an outsider, he might appear to be money hungry but anyone who's met him would know that this isn't the case AT ALL. (Obviously, he's not bringing in cases of corals and chopping them either though. I bet he sheds a tear like the Indian in the pollution commercial any time a frag dies).

My goal in this post, which I have listed on various forums, is just to remind people that we have aquariums, not biological assembly lines.

There is an attitude that is forming in the hobby also, about defending the frag market and high prices. This thread inspired my soap box position...
http://www.club-zoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5386

We need to always remember this is a hobby, were friends, corals, and community is most important.

Good points.

FOOTNOTE: The link you provided allowed non-members to read the thread earlier in the day but now in the evening, you have to be a member to read it. It's probably for the best though. The thread starter was a little out of line in several posts IMO.

 

[sihaya]

OMHO, whatever gets more corals in the world in lieu of less corals is AOK with me.

Ditto. I don't really care if someone is doing it for profit or not, fraging decreases the demand on wild corals.

That said, I do also wish more people would let some of their corals grow more. I think we've gotten so used to seeing frags and small colonies that we've forgotten how big these things are supposed to get. Granted, our tanks are too small to let them get quite as big as they would in the wild, but still... it would be nice to see some bigger colonies in tanks. If for no other reason, it would be cool to see more captive spawnings.

 

[sihaya]

People are people, don't put principals before personalities, we all have motives and needs. Id like to think that when the seas are no longer able to support the coral life, some of us will have the only examples of how it used to be,

Well, I wouldn't say we'd have examples of "how it used to be." Nothing in our tanks even comes close to a wild reef. Nor would I say it's something I'd "like to think" will happen. However, the truth is that pollution, over-fishing and global warming are going to wipe out the reefs a lot faster than hobbyists will. There may very well come a day when at least some corals are extinct every where except in captivity. I just hope we all get our act together before them.