A question of ethics
- Thread starter Mr.Firemouth
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drummereef
reef obsessed
I agree Rich. I've seen this more and more, especially in the SPS trade. Many people have the miseducation that there is a huge resale market for corals in general. Unfortunately from what I've seen it is quite the opposite. You see people selling corals everyday on the forums with most barely getting their money back if that. For me, it's all about keeping corals I like. There are much better ways of investing my money than in my fish tank. 
steven11
Somethingotherthannormal!
The only reason that i sell corals is to buy more corals or better equiptment. I have also given away my fare share of corals, eventhough i dont have much, to get some one started in the hobby and hope that they "pay it forward." I was given this when i started and had to carry it on!
Skimmy
SKIM FU
the wild coral reefs will be gone very soon, less than 100 years most likely if thing continue their exponential downward death spiral that we are currently experiencing in the worlds reefs...
at this point i consider it an all out war against time to identify, collect, and propagate as many species of coral as possible before the numbers start dwindling even further...
i forsee a not so far future where coral reefs will rely heavily on human repopulation of propagated corals back onto wild reefs, propagated corals that have only known life in captivity, where chemical and nutrient levels whip around like a circus (compared to the ocean).
it has been one of my dreams to start a repopulation facility in the tropics somewhere in a place it is most needed. it has always been the end goal to my current involvement as a hobbyist and working within this industry.
i currently work for others in the industry who value propagation as a means of making a living as well as starting a sustainable industry out of aquaculture/mariculture of corals instead of purchasing 100% wild caught corals. it is my plan sometime in the future to open my own business that does the same, and then for me to ultimately take several years of profits, and maybe a little family money, to start my own private coral reseeding facility.
i only explain all this because i think it greatly depends upon the motivation of each individual as to the ultimate affect they will have on the reefs and industry... it's up to you and me what happens on the reef, if what you see bothers you, DO SOMETHING about it.
at this point i consider it an all out war against time to identify, collect, and propagate as many species of coral as possible before the numbers start dwindling even further...
i forsee a not so far future where coral reefs will rely heavily on human repopulation of propagated corals back onto wild reefs, propagated corals that have only known life in captivity, where chemical and nutrient levels whip around like a circus (compared to the ocean).
it has been one of my dreams to start a repopulation facility in the tropics somewhere in a place it is most needed. it has always been the end goal to my current involvement as a hobbyist and working within this industry.
i currently work for others in the industry who value propagation as a means of making a living as well as starting a sustainable industry out of aquaculture/mariculture of corals instead of purchasing 100% wild caught corals. it is my plan sometime in the future to open my own business that does the same, and then for me to ultimately take several years of profits, and maybe a little family money, to start my own private coral reseeding facility.
i only explain all this because i think it greatly depends upon the motivation of each individual as to the ultimate affect they will have on the reefs and industry... it's up to you and me what happens on the reef, if what you see bothers you, DO SOMETHING about it.
HarleyDude
Active member
Hey Rich - great post.
My motivation for this hobby are:
- beauty (bringing a piece of the ocean to my living room)
- education (learn more and more about nature)
- chemistry (similar to education, but to find that perfect balance to make your tank thrive)
- fragging/propping (to allow other people enjoy the beauty you do)
My goal has always been to provide the best eco system possible for the fish/coral.
I, personally, would not turn my prop tank into a business but would donate, trade or possibly sell some pieces to off set the cost to keep it up. I don't even blame people that sell for profit as long as it is with in reason. There is a fine line between that and what you are referring to.
My motivation for this hobby are:
- beauty (bringing a piece of the ocean to my living room)
- education (learn more and more about nature)
- chemistry (similar to education, but to find that perfect balance to make your tank thrive)
- fragging/propping (to allow other people enjoy the beauty you do)
My goal has always been to provide the best eco system possible for the fish/coral.
I, personally, would not turn my prop tank into a business but would donate, trade or possibly sell some pieces to off set the cost to keep it up. I don't even blame people that sell for profit as long as it is with in reason. There is a fine line between that and what you are referring to.
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
Great thread! I didn't get a chance to read the link before it became member's only, but I think I have an idea...
I agree with HarleyDude's statement:
One of the problems for me is when people sell corals for waaaaaayyyy more than what they should sell for, and they likely sell to people naive enough to pay the kind of money the seller is asking. If you look at zoanthids, for example. Holy cow, the marketing is unbelieveable. All the special names for the different colors.....let's take a plain old brown zoanthid, and give it a cool name: The Rare Chocolate Love variety....oh, and it has to be a specific color brown to be considered. Here's my marketing for February..... Buy your loved one a prized "Chocolate Love" frag this Valentines Day, instead of traditional chocolates, these zoanthids will be the hit of the tank! Or look at another coral: the Luck of the Irish Green Hammer....I think you'll see where I'm going with this. Make a coral rare, and hype it to increase your asking price.
I would love to be able to set up a prop system, and propagate corals. However, I would love to do it to offset the costs of a hobby I love and enjoy, as well as conservation. When Calfo gave our club a presentation on Coral Farming, I think everyone was inspired! Maybe some individuals see too many dollar signs when listening to a presentation like this and go to the extreme.
The propagation aspect can be a hobby all in itself, too. As with any industry, there are going to be unethical individuals, or individuals taking advantage of others, but you'll find that anywhere.
When looking at corals, I rarely (if ever) think about what kind of money I could make off of them. But, everyone is different.
Great conversation!
I agree with HarleyDude's statement:
One of the problems for me is when people sell corals for waaaaaayyyy more than what they should sell for, and they likely sell to people naive enough to pay the kind of money the seller is asking. If you look at zoanthids, for example. Holy cow, the marketing is unbelieveable. All the special names for the different colors.....let's take a plain old brown zoanthid, and give it a cool name: The Rare Chocolate Love variety....oh, and it has to be a specific color brown to be considered. Here's my marketing for February..... Buy your loved one a prized "Chocolate Love" frag this Valentines Day, instead of traditional chocolates, these zoanthids will be the hit of the tank! Or look at another coral: the Luck of the Irish Green Hammer....I think you'll see where I'm going with this. Make a coral rare, and hype it to increase your asking price.
I would love to be able to set up a prop system, and propagate corals. However, I would love to do it to offset the costs of a hobby I love and enjoy, as well as conservation. When Calfo gave our club a presentation on Coral Farming, I think everyone was inspired! Maybe some individuals see too many dollar signs when listening to a presentation like this and go to the extreme.
The propagation aspect can be a hobby all in itself, too. As with any industry, there are going to be unethical individuals, or individuals taking advantage of others, but you'll find that anywhere.
When looking at corals, I rarely (if ever) think about what kind of money I could make off of them. But, everyone is different.
Great conversation!
Caveat Emptor.....
I agree that it is wrong of sellers to take advantage of others lack of knowledge to make a profit...but I also think that coral pricing is highly subjective to start with, and it is ultimately the buyer's responsibility to educate him/herself and purchase wisely...ultimately the buyer sets the market price, not the seller...if people stop paying ridiculous prices for certain corals, the market prices will respond accordingly. But there also has to be some profit in it, or many would stop doing it, thus lowering the amount of captive propigated corals in the hobby.
MikeS
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
I saw a guy on ebay selling Asterina sea stars, "Sump cleaners."
The bidding for 5 was up to $17.00
This is as wrong as those selling Tulip anemones (Majanos)
Be that as it may, supply and demand dictates pricing. The issue isn't the current price, it is when lies or deception is used to create the demand.
Coral propagation and dissemination is a good thing. Scalping is a different issue
http://search-completed.ebay.com/se...action=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search
The bidding for 5 was up to $17.00
This is as wrong as those selling Tulip anemones (Majanos)
Be that as it may, supply and demand dictates pricing. The issue isn't the current price, it is when lies or deception is used to create the demand.
Coral propagation and dissemination is a good thing. Scalping is a different issue
http://search-completed.ebay.com/se...action=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search
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Jan
Well-known member
Mr. Firemouth,
Did you buy that beautiful brain coral in your first post? That is the most gorgeous brain I have ever seen. Where did you find it? Do you have any advice on how to find a special specimen like that one?
I won't offer any feedback on the rest of your post because although I agree with your sentiments, I haven't been exposed to that kind of profiteering yet...not to my knowledge, anyway. My tank looks like a frag tank but only because I'm new to the hobby and most everything I have is small.
Did you buy that beautiful brain coral in your first post? That is the most gorgeous brain I have ever seen. Where did you find it? Do you have any advice on how to find a special specimen like that one?
I won't offer any feedback on the rest of your post because although I agree with your sentiments, I haven't been exposed to that kind of profiteering yet...not to my knowledge, anyway. My tank looks like a frag tank but only because I'm new to the hobby and most everything I have is small.
HarleyDude
Active member
If I remember correctly Rich knows who has this brain and he has been offered someting like $400 for it. If I were to guess this is what started the thread probably because the person who offered that much planned on fragging it out. I am putting two threads together from different sites, but that is my guess.
DonW
R.I.P.
IMO people are going to pay what they are willing to pay. Its up to the buyer to decide wether or not its a good pice just as you would with any other purchase. Ethics in a hobby that some find unethical in itself can be difficult. We justify keeping sealife in a plastic box and call it ethical because we personally are not going to the reef to rob it of its treasures. I really doubt this hobby even scratches the surface of the damage that the human race as a whole is causing to the reef. Propogating corals isnt going to save the natural reef, it going to save the hobby in general. Once the government steps in and says no more collecting period then the hobby will be in trouble if folks dont start propagating corals and creating prop businesses. On the other hand this is going to drive the cost of most corals up. Running a business is not cheap and the owner must make a profit to survive. This IS one of the most expensive hobbies out there and folks need to understand that before getting into it. JMO
Don
Don
Skimmy
SKIM FU
bah, humbug!!!
there are already several reeseeding stations where captive propagated corals are being transplanted back into waters that killed them only a few years before, it IS working, and it WILL make a difference.
DonW
R.I.P.
You and I running prop systems at home is not going to restore the reef is what I meant. It will preserve the hobby and that is it, simple reality.
Don
I have been involved in several hobbies and professions either personally or peripherally where the pricing is very subjective, based on supply and demand, and the difference between a professional and hobbyist (or amateur) is fairly subjective. Several friends are or have been winemakers down in California, I'm a massage therapist, other friends are artists, one friend was a professional chef for a time.
Anyway, with any of these, there's a fine but distinct line between doing something as a hobby and doing it professionally. For a long time in college I would give friends and family massages for free or for trade for a massage in turn. Then I went and invested a lot of time and money into education (and still do) and charge a fairly substantial hourly rate for my services. One good friend used to put on elaborate dinners for friends, even after graduating from Le Cordon Bleu cooking academy in France and it was because he loved it. He went on to work in the restaurant industry where people were paying $100 plus for dinner.
In a lot of ways, complaining about people coral farming would be like a chef complaining about someone spinach farming. Even a home cook goes to the store to buy vegetables. Some of them may be farmed, and some wild-collected, but we don't begrudge the farmers. In the case of our hobby, supporting captive propagating or breeding programs not only reduces our footprint on the reef, but helps raise awareness of the endangered wild reef and increases the chance that a new hobbyist can come in to the hobby and learn responsible husbandry from the beginning.
As I said earlier and others have echoed, I totally support trading and giving corals to other hobbyists or selling really cheaply. I also personally don't believe in chopping up wild corals for a profit but that's just my own beliefs. If someone wants to buy $100 zoanthids, or ricordeas, or LE chocolate zoas (nice one, that!) or $150 bottles of wine or whatever, then that's their money. I agree on taking advantage of ignorance as being wrong, but sometimes people want the status or really have to have that one beautiful thing.
For myself, I do want to start a small propagation business. I don't know what that will look like, but it is definitely different than having a display tank with a few frags in it. I will hopefully be able to do both. Something Calfo said that I happen to agree with is encouraging price reality versus hype. It costs X amount in time, energy, supplements, and equipment to grow this small frag from point A to point B. Add whatever mark-up seems sustainable and sell it. When that coral becomes the object of the latest fad, why triple the price? Maybe if that profiteering was the difference between getting food on the table or not, but for me that won't be the issue. I just want a sustainable market for captive propagated frags. There are so many corals out there that there could be a LOT of people growing frags and not have a whole lot of overlap. Wil at Reef Mystique is starting smallcolonies.com as an aquaculture venture which is really cool. Do I think it's going to be really lucrative? Not really, but it is one of the few things I've been this passionate about for such a long time. To me that seems like where I would like to be working.
Anyway, long meandering post, but support captive propagated reef critters, especially if they are reasonably priced!
Josh
Anyway, with any of these, there's a fine but distinct line between doing something as a hobby and doing it professionally. For a long time in college I would give friends and family massages for free or for trade for a massage in turn. Then I went and invested a lot of time and money into education (and still do) and charge a fairly substantial hourly rate for my services. One good friend used to put on elaborate dinners for friends, even after graduating from Le Cordon Bleu cooking academy in France and it was because he loved it. He went on to work in the restaurant industry where people were paying $100 plus for dinner.
In a lot of ways, complaining about people coral farming would be like a chef complaining about someone spinach farming. Even a home cook goes to the store to buy vegetables. Some of them may be farmed, and some wild-collected, but we don't begrudge the farmers. In the case of our hobby, supporting captive propagating or breeding programs not only reduces our footprint on the reef, but helps raise awareness of the endangered wild reef and increases the chance that a new hobbyist can come in to the hobby and learn responsible husbandry from the beginning.
As I said earlier and others have echoed, I totally support trading and giving corals to other hobbyists or selling really cheaply. I also personally don't believe in chopping up wild corals for a profit but that's just my own beliefs. If someone wants to buy $100 zoanthids, or ricordeas, or LE chocolate zoas (nice one, that!) or $150 bottles of wine or whatever, then that's their money. I agree on taking advantage of ignorance as being wrong, but sometimes people want the status or really have to have that one beautiful thing.
For myself, I do want to start a small propagation business. I don't know what that will look like, but it is definitely different than having a display tank with a few frags in it. I will hopefully be able to do both. Something Calfo said that I happen to agree with is encouraging price reality versus hype. It costs X amount in time, energy, supplements, and equipment to grow this small frag from point A to point B. Add whatever mark-up seems sustainable and sell it. When that coral becomes the object of the latest fad, why triple the price? Maybe if that profiteering was the difference between getting food on the table or not, but for me that won't be the issue. I just want a sustainable market for captive propagated frags. There are so many corals out there that there could be a LOT of people growing frags and not have a whole lot of overlap. Wil at Reef Mystique is starting smallcolonies.com as an aquaculture venture which is really cool. Do I think it's going to be really lucrative? Not really, but it is one of the few things I've been this passionate about for such a long time. To me that seems like where I would like to be working.
Anyway, long meandering post, but support captive propagated reef critters, especially if they are reasonably priced!
Josh
Mr.Firemouth
RUL'N DA REEFS
Jan, that brain isn't for sale. Too bad cuz' I wanted it bad! Awesome piece!
Harley, whaaassssuuupppp!!!!!
Actually, I posted this because of this thread...
"Anthony Calfo fragged my brain"
It was cool that Anthony fragged the brain coral at IMAC this year...
http://www.bnarc.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=9246#9246
This was all good. Now don't misunderstand things, because they got out of hand really quick. The brain that was fragged belonged to Pufferpunk. She is not a fragger or a commercial hobbyist. She does have her own Puffer forum and is on the Crew at Wet Web Media. She asked Anthony to frag the brain and he did. She then posted some threads on the event on 2 message boards(RC and Club-zoa) which have since been removed.
The problem was that she sold the frags in the thread about the fragging event, and if you remember the title, she attached others to the sale. The price was not unreasonable for each piece, but the profit of 6-7 pieces compared to the price of a healthy brain coral was farther out and caused some discussion. Basically, the threads turned personal and ugly...hence DRAMA!!!!
The main thing I felt after being in this hobby for 25 years, and also being on the crew of WWM, and posting on multiple sites in an effort to help others reach success in aquaria in general, was how sad it was that the hobby was being hijacked by "frags for sale threads" and all the DRAMA that comes with these type of threads. I wasn't feeling any sense of community or support in these threads.
This inspired me to go around and at least discuss are perceptions of the hobby in open forums. I wanted us all to try to remember what is really important. The love of the hobby, the corals, the build of the systems, the support and friends that we all have/seek/share with our tanks.
I guess I needed to feel better.
I am proud of Puffer that she went back to the Admins and requested the total threads be pulled down and she apologized to Anthony. That was very cool of her! That is the way we should end our disputes as a community.
I hope this post helps everyone understand where my frustration lied as I have been seeing this more and more in the hobby at my "meet and greet level" attending shows, swaps, events around the country. This episode was just a catalyst to a problem/attitude that was bugging me.
Thanks, Rich
Harley, whaaassssuuupppp!!!!!
Actually, I posted this because of this thread...
"Anthony Calfo fragged my brain"
It was cool that Anthony fragged the brain coral at IMAC this year...
http://www.bnarc.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=9246#9246
This was all good. Now don't misunderstand things, because they got out of hand really quick. The brain that was fragged belonged to Pufferpunk. She is not a fragger or a commercial hobbyist. She does have her own Puffer forum and is on the Crew at Wet Web Media. She asked Anthony to frag the brain and he did. She then posted some threads on the event on 2 message boards(RC and Club-zoa) which have since been removed.
The problem was that she sold the frags in the thread about the fragging event, and if you remember the title, she attached others to the sale. The price was not unreasonable for each piece, but the profit of 6-7 pieces compared to the price of a healthy brain coral was farther out and caused some discussion. Basically, the threads turned personal and ugly...hence DRAMA!!!!
The main thing I felt after being in this hobby for 25 years, and also being on the crew of WWM, and posting on multiple sites in an effort to help others reach success in aquaria in general, was how sad it was that the hobby was being hijacked by "frags for sale threads" and all the DRAMA that comes with these type of threads. I wasn't feeling any sense of community or support in these threads.
This inspired me to go around and at least discuss are perceptions of the hobby in open forums. I wanted us all to try to remember what is really important. The love of the hobby, the corals, the build of the systems, the support and friends that we all have/seek/share with our tanks.
I guess I needed to feel better.
I am proud of Puffer that she went back to the Admins and requested the total threads be pulled down and she apologized to Anthony. That was very cool of her! That is the way we should end our disputes as a community.
I hope this post helps everyone understand where my frustration lied as I have been seeing this more and more in the hobby at my "meet and greet level" attending shows, swaps, events around the country. This episode was just a catalyst to a problem/attitude that was bugging me.
Thanks, Rich
OmarD
Well-known member
I agree with Mr. Firemouth (I think)...
But am glad someone out there is fragging/propagating corals. That is all I have ever purchased...buy small (cheap) grow them out...propagate for own tank if needed.
Have certainly never sold any, because as with most "passions" am not in it for the money. The pleasure I get is far beyond any income could provide.
I often fantasize about owning a fish store, or at least working in one...but then I wonder if it would really be a good idea...would it detract from the pleasue I get from keeping my own tank?
From what I observe in LFS, I don't think I would feel good about selling a beautiful fish or coral to someone who has money, but is obviously clueless to its needs, upkeep and maintenance.
When it becomes a business, it becomes "work."
But am glad someone out there is fragging/propagating corals. That is all I have ever purchased...buy small (cheap) grow them out...propagate for own tank if needed.
Have certainly never sold any, because as with most "passions" am not in it for the money. The pleasure I get is far beyond any income could provide.
I often fantasize about owning a fish store, or at least working in one...but then I wonder if it would really be a good idea...would it detract from the pleasue I get from keeping my own tank?
From what I observe in LFS, I don't think I would feel good about selling a beautiful fish or coral to someone who has money, but is obviously clueless to its needs, upkeep and maintenance.
When it becomes a business, it becomes "work."
Jan
Well-known member
I wonder if this is the same brain I emailed a vendor about...I forget which vendor but I said "I want a brain that looks like the one in your photo...is that for sale?" Was it Atlantis? Hmmm, anyway, the vendor said, "No, it's in our display and we're frequently receiving offers on it. Even one offer for $350 which we turned down..." Ironic if this was the same one.
HarleyDude
Active member
Hey Mr. Firemouth - thanks for the clarification.
Hi Everyone, In defense to Jeni/Pufferpunk, she had to remove those threads, because even after she aplogized publicly to Mr Calfo for giving him the impression she had "exploited" his name (believe me, she had absolutely no intention of that) he threatened her with a lawsuit! Then, he goes ahead & uses the same thread for his own benefit.
As posted in another thread here, Mr Calfo, in response to someone asking how a brain is fragged:
"A thread on RC "Anthony Calfo fragged my brain!" or some such title (do a search for "Calfo" and it will show up near the top in the results since it is recent from IMAC) has post-op images. A link in the thread shows images of the demonstration too."
So... how upset & "exploited" can he really feel he is?
After Jeni realized it was in the best interest of those corals to let them sit in her tank longer, none of them have been sold yet. They are looking great & healing fine. What about the anemones Calfo frags in his demos all the time? They are flown in, or donated from a local & placed in unfamiliar water. Then cut up & given away, to go into tanks that have totally different conditions then they are used to. Where's the healing time? So what's the difference here? Methinks he doesn't practice what he preaches. So why not leave her alone? Every one of her buyers is thrilled to have a piece of this coral at the prices she is asking for them & some are being traded.
Is anyone aware of all the free stuff she gives away to people that stop by to view her tanks? No, because if you had met her & been to her home, you wouldn't be flaming her or causing her such grief. Is anyone aware of how much time she devotes to saving countless lives in the 30 years she's devoted to this hobby? Go look at her posts in the puffer/brackish section of WWM or at the puffer forum she has been running for 10 years! How about all the articles she has published, online & in print? She recently has been offered the opportunity to host a documentary on pufferfish by one of the biggest broadcasters in the world & they are sending her all over the world to film it. Does that make her that much different than Calfo? Believe me, she doesn't need his name, or anyone elses, to help her sell those corals.
Firemouth, Wasn't it her idea that you join the Crew at WWM? If it wasn't for her introducing you to Mr Fenner, you might not even be on the Crew for the short month you are there (Puffer has been helping out there for over 3 years now). You, yourself told her to sell the frags for what she has paid for the origional coral, did you not?
Would everyone please cease adding fuel to the unnessary flaming that she has countless times times tried to put out? She really is just another human being, trying to get along on this Earth, like everyone else here.
As posted in another thread here, Mr Calfo, in response to someone asking how a brain is fragged:
"A thread on RC "Anthony Calfo fragged my brain!" or some such title (do a search for "Calfo" and it will show up near the top in the results since it is recent from IMAC) has post-op images. A link in the thread shows images of the demonstration too."
So... how upset & "exploited" can he really feel he is?
After Jeni realized it was in the best interest of those corals to let them sit in her tank longer, none of them have been sold yet. They are looking great & healing fine. What about the anemones Calfo frags in his demos all the time? They are flown in, or donated from a local & placed in unfamiliar water. Then cut up & given away, to go into tanks that have totally different conditions then they are used to. Where's the healing time? So what's the difference here? Methinks he doesn't practice what he preaches. So why not leave her alone? Every one of her buyers is thrilled to have a piece of this coral at the prices she is asking for them & some are being traded.
Is anyone aware of all the free stuff she gives away to people that stop by to view her tanks? No, because if you had met her & been to her home, you wouldn't be flaming her or causing her such grief. Is anyone aware of how much time she devotes to saving countless lives in the 30 years she's devoted to this hobby? Go look at her posts in the puffer/brackish section of WWM or at the puffer forum she has been running for 10 years! How about all the articles she has published, online & in print? She recently has been offered the opportunity to host a documentary on pufferfish by one of the biggest broadcasters in the world & they are sending her all over the world to film it. Does that make her that much different than Calfo? Believe me, she doesn't need his name, or anyone elses, to help her sell those corals.
Firemouth, Wasn't it her idea that you join the Crew at WWM? If it wasn't for her introducing you to Mr Fenner, you might not even be on the Crew for the short month you are there (Puffer has been helping out there for over 3 years now). You, yourself told her to sell the frags for what she has paid for the origional coral, did you not?
Would everyone please cease adding fuel to the unnessary flaming that she has countless times times tried to put out? She really is just another human being, trying to get along on this Earth, like everyone else here.
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