A question of ethics

[NaH2O]

Crabman - Welcome to Reef Frontiers!

There are two sides to every story (we could ask Anthony his take on your post and we may see another side of the story), sooooo let's keep this thread from turning into a flame war. Flaming is not allowed on RF, and there have been no inflammatory remarks up until this point. As most of us realize, flaming can begin at the drop of a hat, and a good thread will have to be closed. I'd like to keep this conversation from going down that road. The thread is a very good topic. I think it is something that should be discussed. It did not involve any individual names up until post #36....and I actually didn't note any inflammatory remarks in the post. Let's keep this thread from getting personal, pointing fingers, and doing the "he said/did - she said/did" scenarios. The thread will have to be closed. As I said, there has been no flaming, and I'd like to keep it like that. You brought up some good GENERAL points that can be picked up on in your post that actually deals with the topic at hand, and can be used in the discussion. If you'd like to continue talking about the topic here, then please consider your view on the topic and reply. Read through the thread and see what all of our views are on frag pricing, chop shops, saving the reefs, aquaculture, etc. Alright everyone....let's stop pointing fingers, and get the topic back on track. If the thread continues a downward spiral, then it will be closed. Let's not go there.

 

[Crabman]

Thanks for the welcome. It's just that I see this thread started in several forums & it has always resulted in horrible flaming towards her. I thought it was time someone told her side of the story, since she can't in fear of the repercussions. Then maybe people will stop bringing it up. They have no idea what jumping to the wrong conclusions can do do to a good, honest person.

 

[NaH2O]

Crabman - while I can empathize with you, if you take a look at the thread here (not other forums), it was 3 pages before any names were even mentioned....and then no inflammatory responses came from that. This thread hasn't been posted on for 15 days before your response came up. Some might say the thread ran its course and was done.

Reef Frontiers really prides itself on the good membership we have. We have discussions on some pretty heated topics without issues, and that is a testament to the folks here. As long as a person posts in a respectable way, then debated topics can go on. We do not tolerate flames of any kind or personal attacks.

 

[spongebob lover]

We do not tolerate flames of any kind or personal attacks

i agree, we're very friendly here and if it gets really really bad then you get to talk to the mods other than that, you're cool


ohhh yeah and welcome to RF dood

 

[Crabman]

Thanks! I guess the problem lies with the link made to a thread where she was flamed in, that eventually had to be removed. It was said here, that this was the main purpose of this whole thread, inadvertently saying she had no ethics.

"This thread inspired my soap box position..." (Link to her thread)
"Chopping corals for the cash is what's disturbing me."

Sounds like another flame towards her. I felt the need to defend her here, sorry that I got here late, I was just made aware of yet another thread on this subject & couldn't take it anymore. It is an interesting topic & would have been nice if it wasn't started because someone didn't understand her real reasons for fragging & need to support her hobby, just like everyone else. Thanks for letting me state my opinion.

 

[Reeferdude]

Please do not take offense to this but the whole idea that one persons choice to profit from a legal activity somehow reflects a question of ethics is preposterous. The very foundation of our country's greatness is acceptance of our neighbors choices. For goodness sake, if someone buys and sells a frag, a tire, a football stadium and makes a profit regardless of the amount, kudos! Capitalism and the quest for profit is what make our lives better. If your neighbors make a huge profit on any legal activity it does not take money from your pocket. Many think capitalism is a zero sum game but it's not. Unfortunately, there is a segment of our society that feels compelled to force others to conform to their way of thinking. Whether it's seat belts, smoking, trans fats or cell phones. I say let free people be free to make their own choices as long as it's legal. Although noble, attempts to force change upon others we don't agree with is the antithesis of freedom.

 

[MAGDRL Mom]

Brutus

What kind of crab is Brutus? I have one I got has a hitchhiker the size of a small button - put him in the fuge. He is now in a tank dedicated just to him, his body is about the size of a 50 cent piece. He is quite the character and has a voracious appetite!

 

[MAGDRL Mom]

if someone buys and sells a frag, a tire, a football stadium and makes a profit regardless of the amount, kudos! Capitalism and the quest for profit is what make our lives better.

I agree whole heartedly in Capitalism, but do feel there are different ethics that should be applied to live organisms vs. a tire.

Puppy mills are a prime example - is it OK to breed an animal to DEATH in substandard conditions to make a profit? I say no.

 

[Reeferdude]

I agree whole heartedly in Capitalism, but do feel there are different ethics that should be applied to live organisms vs. a tire.

Puppy mills are a prime example - is it OK to breed an animal to DEATH in substandard conditions to make a profit? I say no.

Legal is legal would you not agree? If it's a change in law that define the legality then I say purpose a bill via the legislative process. But you're right! Under your substandard conditions scenario the "substandard conditions" component of your argument would bring into question the legality of the "puppy mill" example, depending upon the local jurisdictions interpretation of "substandard".

 

[Herefishyfishy]

There is a large divide between ethics and justice. Something legal is not necessarily ethical. What is good for the duck hunter isn't good for the duck. How about wild game hunting for trophy or thrill only?

Tobacco is a classic example. Cancerous, bad for society, bad for health. Completely legal. Some things are illegal that are harmless as a whole.

Puppy mills are unethical. Washington is one of the few states with animal cruelty laws with any teeth. Even here it is tough to enforce them.

Most of us know right from wrong and do the best we can. Laws just help point us in the correct direction.


Just a controversial subject with no black and white answers. Probably belongs at the water cooler

 

[MAGDRL Mom]

I am not usually a proponent of more rules and regulations - though I have testified to the VA Senate regarding animal rights laws. The problem is when a living thing is treated as property instead of the respect that should be afforded to all living organisms.

I feel strongly that if we take on the responsibility we should care for it properly and give it a quality life... it shouldn't matter if it is a dog, a cat, a plant, or a coral.

I think mostly it is a matter of mentality and education. I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "It's only a dog.", and wanted to choke some one!

If cattle are being kept for slaughter, should they suffer before they are killed to provide food? Again I say no. (A happy cow is a tasty steak!)

Being at the top of the food chain, we have a responsibility - morally and ethically, if not always legally.

 

[JoshF]

I agree whole heartedly in Capitalism, but do feel there are different ethics that should be applied to live organisms vs. a tire.

Puppy mills are a prime example - is it OK to breed an animal to DEATH in substandard conditions to make a profit? I say no.

Valid point, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. We're not talking about people abusing animals, or to reference your .sig dying them false colors. We're talking about whether it's ethical to chop these guys up for profit. It sounds like the person in question in this thread got beat up unnecessarily. I agree that she should have waited longer to sell them, but that doesn't merit a flame war. Was it a little cheeky to sell them in the same forum as the photos of the fragging? Probably. She should have gotten permission first to use AC's name. Okay, even with all that it seems that a flame war (much less a lawsuit!?! ) is out of hand. We're better people than that.

Obviously, various people of note in this hobby tour frag farms, hobbyist houses, retail places, club meetings etc. and are fine using their name and image to promote those things. I've seen lots of pictures of pretty much everybody in this hobby at different events, store openings, etc. I think the issue is asking permission. Honest mistake, and one that I might have inadvertantly made myself. If George Bush (to avoid using any actual hobbyist names) came and propagated some nice corals at my farm, I might forget to ask his permission to post those photos along with my attempts to sell them. Oops on my part, and I'd be right to be called onto the table by George Bush. (Can you just imagine? "So the strategory for this here brain coral...") An apology should end it. The problem escalated when the owner of the coral then bounced around to other boards and tried to make drama out of it. BAD CALL. No surprise that it escalated! So, DON'T MAKE DRAMA, don't bounce around the boards stirring up the pot.

As Nicky (NAH2O) said, it had run it's course here, with no flaming on our part. We're a pretty reasonable group! (dood)

Josh

 

[DonW]

The price of corals and fish is really what drives this hobby. The over pricing trend is a little disturbing. If they are over priced people cant afford them and get out or never get in. Its a double edge sword. If they are down low many folks get into the hobby with two left feet and no thumbs. If they are two high only the people with deep pockets get the joy of owning a reef.
There is good and bad to both. When there is alot of new commers we see a huge influx of substandard equipment flying off the shelf and new manufactures pop up weekly. People think they can save money and be cheap and buy that cheap skimmer and do some short term funky mod to boost performance. This in turn causes a major failure or is just not good enough. Salt is expensive so the system does not get proper care, dosing is complicated and expensive so isnt done or does not get done right due to the lack of funds. These people soon leave the hobby and flush money and animals down the drain.
On the other hand if everything in so expensive that only those with deep pockets can continue in the hobby it will soon die off and return back to what it was just a few years ago. There has to be some sort of middle ground, but it seems to be human nature to take thing from one extreme to the other.

Don

 

[Crabman]

I think the issue is asking permission.

Although apologized for, none of you know that they were actually friends. AC had been to the Puffer's home, they have met for drinks, exchanged friendly, supportive emails & he even sent her a scanner. That's why she thought nothing of leaving her stuff at his booth at IMAC & didn't think he'd mind her using his name in the title she considered cute & nothing more. I know this forum would like this thread to die off but I'm glad I finally had the chance to bring out the truth about all this for her, since I feel this subject is really what this thread was about.

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks! I guess the problem lies with the link made to a thread where she was flamed in, that eventually had to be removed. It was said here, that this was the main purpose of this whole thread, inadvertently saying she had no ethics.

OK - I saw the link, but couldn't see the thread. Also, that thread was on another board, not here.

"This thread inspired my soap box position..." (Link to her thread)
"Chopping corals for the cash is what's disturbing me."

Sounds like another flame towards her. I felt the need to defend her here, sorry that I got here late, I was just made aware of yet another thread on this subject & couldn't take it anymore. It is an interesting topic & would have been nice if it wasn't started because someone didn't understand her real reasons for fragging & need to support her hobby, just like everyone else. Thanks for letting me state my opinion.

My opinion still stands that I don't see the inflammatory remarks. We can discuss others actions in an adult-like manner. This thread, regardless of people's stance on "ethics" was a good discussion. As I stated before, we have all kinds of discussions on hot topics here, and everyone can stay civil, provide their points with facts, without the fear of getting flamed.

I know this forum would like this thread to die off but I'm glad I finally had the chance to bring out the truth about all this for her, since I feel this subject is really what this thread was about.

I don't think its a matter of getting the thread to die off, as much as it is about getting back on topic. I really could have cared less who this thread was about....it could have been completely hypothetical in my eyes. I cared a great deal about the topic as a whole and thought it lead to a great discussion.

Crabman, I sincerely hope you stick around our forum to see what RF is all about, and that you didn't join only to post on this thread. We are a great group and have many valuable resources here.

On that note, I think this thread has run its course. It will officially be closed, as I don't think we are making any progress in getting the discussion back on track. If the site owner wishes it to be opened again, then I will do so.