Adding water

[idgy]

Ok, I have made several post on this forum in regards to refugiums and I am about to start my refugium.

One question! I have a 20 gallon tank for the refugium, Do I just make brand new saltwater up and put it in the 20 gallon refugium and have it empty out into the sump or do I have to let it sit for 6 weeks until it cycles before letting into the sump?

My main tank has been up for 8 months now! I do not want to risk any mistakes as everything is running very well!

 

[NUGIO]

no cycling needed if your not putting any sand in it

 

[Krish]

"Just water" alone IMO, doesn't have to cycle. I think cycling refers to when you add LR, fish etc. to a new tank in order for it to build up the proper bacteria which will enable all ammonia and nitrie to drop off (which I'm sure happened long time with an 8 month old system). You'd only have to mix up the proper salt mix in the water, allow it to airate a bit and temperatures to match, and then in she goes in the fuge. Just like a 20 gal water change Good luck!

 

[idgy]

I am putting live rock rubble and live sand into the refugium! So I assume I must let it cycle?

 

[Krish]

I am putting live rock rubble and live sand into the refugium! So I assume I must let it cycle?

Depends...Is the LR and rubble coming out of the tank or is it all new stuff?

 

[liveforphysics]

Learn, and then think about what "cycling" actually IS. Now think about the purpose of "cycling".

After this, you will have answered your own question, as well as understood a crucial concept in keeping a healthy tank. This is true for any reefkeeper.

 

[wrightme43]

If they rock and rubble are "cycled" for lack of a better term, all your doing is a dilution waterchange by adding new water in. Unless there is something on or in the rock, dead, dying or rotting. There will be no increase in Ammonia, or nitrite. So no "cycle"
Now you can, put ball valves inline with the input and output of the fuge, and allow it to mature some with a powerhead and its own heater. If I were doing that, I would fill it with tank water, and add the fresh saltwater to the main system.
On the flip side, I have added a fuge to two tanks with no problems, and converted my tank from sumpless to sumped with fuge, with no problems.

 

[liveforphysics]

Wrightme43, Rock/sand can not be "cycled" if its not connected to the tank. If you are thinking cured, then of course, but you can only cycle (the process if finding biological equilibrium between tank available nutrients and bacteria, which occurs slowly in a series of large die-offs followed by overpopulation that triggers another die-off, hence the cycle) anything if its part of the tank.

I think cycling is something that very few people (perticularly most shop owners) actaully understand, and this lack of understanding of what cycling is is perhaps the single biggest problem source in the hobby.

I mean, lots of shop owners and tank maintainers encourage water changes and things for a fresh tank thats cycling (obvously makeing it take much longer to find equilibrium).

If this person learns enough to answer their own question rather than be thrown an answer, they are going to have a hell of a lot time in this hobby.

 

[wrightme43]

Wrightme43, Rock/sand can not be "cycled" if its not connected to the tank. If you are thinking cured, then of course, but you can only cycle (the process if finding biological equilibrium between tank available nutrients and bacteria, which occurs slowly in a series of large die-offs followed by overpopulation that triggers another die-off, hence the cycle) anything if its part of the tank.

I think cycling is something that very few people (perticularly most shop owners) actaully understand, and this lack of understanding of what cycling is is perhaps the single biggest problem source in the hobby.

I mean, lots of shop owners and tank maintainers encourage water changes and things for a fresh tank thats cycling (obvously makeing it take much longer to find equilibrium).

If this person learns enough to answer their own question rather than be thrown an answer, they are going to have a hell of a lot time in this hobby.

Dude what in the heck are you talking about. Seriously.
Did you read what I wrote?

 

[liveforphysics]

"If they rock and rubble are "cycled" for lack of a better term"

Rock and sand that is not currently a part of the system its going into can not be "cycled" for that system.


"Now you can, put ball valves inline with the input and output of the fuge, and allow it to mature some with a powerhead and its own heater"

This can cure, but not cycle the fuge.

I didnt want someone getting the wrong idea of what cycling is.

 

[wrightme43]

So what your saying is that a live rock in a cured system is not cycled by the die off. The ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, cycling bacteria only exist in relation to tank system.
The vat or curing tank is not a system, but the tank is?
Come on man, get a grip.
The best part is that the whole aquarium industry and all the people in are wrong, and your way is best.
Look dude. This is your stuff, you posted it, this what your way results in.
Can you not see a problem here. If people wanted tanks to look like this they would all be knocking on your door.
I mean look dude. LOOK. There is a power strip laying on salty carpet, with freaking DUCT tape holding water in over the top of it.
Have you lost your mind?

 

[liveforphysics]

That second pic was my first FOLR, it was quite a mess and required frequent glass cleaning and detritus removal while I maintained it with water changes and protien skimming.

The third pic there is a sub $20 proto-type calcium reactor. After I tuned the design a bit, I finialized it in black PVC. I'm quite proud of how well that little proto-type functioned, and how much it helped me adjust the design to improve it. It uses duct tape because it was haveing its design changed on a bi-daily basis in persuit of the best design. If I would have used more permanate materials for design work, I would have had to buy new materials and start over each time I wanted to change the design.

I turned back on my lights tonight(10k only, no actinic BS pictures) to give you a couple of close up shots of the tank in the first picture.

Now, seriously, lets quit being childish. For me this is about helping somebody to bettere understand how their tank functions so they can answer their own questions and become a better reefkeeper.

If you have a personal grudge, you are welcome to PM me with personal gripes/issues.

 

[Scooterman]

Igy, I hope your question was answered, putting it simple if you rubble came from your main tank or a tub that was set up to keep it in it's natural cycle then adding your refugium will be a breeze.

LR will always cycle it this equilibrium we look for in a tank that we called cycled, it is the LR that has lots of die off when we first get it that is a problem & is required to equalize before adding into a tank. If you really wanted you harvest your own rock & dump it in your tank & have no ill effects of the cycle if done quick enough but how practical is that & do you want everything that comes with the rock is another question.

 

[wrightme43]

LOL
Sure thing.

 

[idgy]

OH MY GOD! I am so lost now!

ok, the live sand and rubble will not be coming from my tank. I am ordering it from Dr. Mac and it is his refuguim kit he sells with snails and cucumbers etc.

PS I do not want to go to work today!

 

[wrightme43]

If it is uncured it will have to be cured, cycled.

 

[Krish]

Now, seriously, lets quit being childish. For me this is about helping somebody to bettere understand how their tank functions so they can answer their own questions and become a better reefkeeper.

I just wanted to say Luke that the reason a person joins a forum is to get information and learn not necessarily to brainstorm and figure out things on their own. Google IMO, is if you feel like researching. That's why you have the comfort of a forum to fall on whenever you are in a jam and need answers fast! That's why I joined. When I saw your reply last night which I've quoted below I was "dumb founded". Obviously idgy wanted specific answers, if not, then the question would not have been asked. I feel we should try to help out as much as we can here and not try to prove our intelligence etc. I don't know crap, so I can't offer much, but I do offer what I have. If it is useful then they use it, if not then atleast I tried...

Learn, and then think about what "cycling" actually IS. Now think about the purpose of "cycling".

After this, you will have answered your own question, as well as understood a crucial concept in keeping a healthy tank. This is true for any reefkeeper.

 

[Scooterman]

Idgy you can add your snails & hermits etc now but the LR & LS like wrightme posted should be cycled & don't stress it will be ok.

 

[steve-s]

Idgy, not sure if this is easier to understand but here goes.

Fresh live rock should be cured to allow die off and other organics that will not survive to be removed in a safe setting that will not pollute and existing system. It's an inevitable process of collection, transport and air exposure in regards to rock. A great many things still survive though.

Cycling is a term meant for bacterial colonization (mainly) and fauna, nothing more. Cured live rock will in essence be cycled as it has gone through a die off process and that process feeds the necessary bacteria. Cured rock does not need to be re cycled usually.

"Equilibrium" (mentioned above) is a bit fleeting as it requires a static system in which we do not have and cannot really control in terms of micro organisms. In short, a better goal or term if you will is as the tank matures it gains stability. That is something that takes quite a few months and you need not be concerned about just yet.

Your choices are actually pretty easy. If the rock being received is cured, everything can go in the fuge. I would fill the fuge with tank water and let in run while you wait on the arrival of your order. This will ensure ther are no snags that need attending to. Once everything arrives, inspect it for quality (smell the rock) and if all is good add the rock and acclimate the inverts.

If the rock smells, cure it seperately in an appropriate sized pail with a heater and powerhead. Plenty of water changes and test daily for the the three nitrogens. Once only nitrate is detecteable, swish the rock really well in some clean SW and add to the fuge.

Don't overthink the small stuff. you'll just give yourself a headache for naught.

Cheers
Steve

 

[idgy]

Thanks, Steve!