additives

[sryder]

I truly don't know. I doubt it but cannot say for sure. Reefkeeping is a developing hobby and science. There are no testing kits for Mo that I know of. I own a Sr testing kit. I've only done it once (and will probably never do it again).

You're likely good as gold. A couple of years from now, I might have a different recommendation. However, right now, you have to do with the best that you know (and the scientists know). I suspect that there will be no change but you never know.

EDIT: BTW, I love Euphyllia. Great coral!!!

this bubble has some great coloration. it has more yellow and purples than anything else. I fragged a baby off of the base around a month ago for a friend. this coral seems to be very hearty and has great flesh coverage around the skeleton.
what will actually determine why some corals have good flesh coverage around them and others seem to receed?
I have an anchor that has receeded. it looks to be healthy otherwise good polyp extension and color. no signs of disease etc.

 

[sryder]

if you run a fuge with say cheato and export on a regular basis for nitrate control would you also be removing the molybdenum?

As Curt said yes. As the plant density in the fuge increases you will need to remove some of that algae and Mo will go with it, just like anything else that algae removes from water. As any part of a plant dies or when you cut it back Mo will released into the water. Don't forget that allot of the foods you may be adding have Mo in them so why sup it. Same for iodine



curt, I usually do a 10% water change every week. if i use the b-ionic will the trace elements such as moly raise to levels I dont want them at?

No. Some mathematical models show that a single 30% or greater water change / m will keep all ions that you are adding as sup's or are being released will be within normal range. You are beyond that so you are fine.

seems pretty interesting. I never realy thought to much about exporting anything other then nutrients and nitrates using the macros. I wonder how many other things it will actually uptake for export and or release in your tank if you do not remove it.

 

[aquaticImports]

The Acropora Corals prefer a high light level combined with a strong, intermittent water current within the aquarium. For continued good health, it will require the addition of supplemental calcium, strontium, and other trace elements to the water.


Small Polyped Stony corals (SPS) are characterized by their stony skeleton and very small polyps. They require very high light, good current, and excellent water conditions. The addition of calcium and strontium is essential to their health. SPS corals are reproduced by fragmentation. When kept in good conditions these corals grow quite rapidly.


Trace elements typically get depleted by uptake by organisms and by other processes. Though the matter of trace element additions is currently in hot debate among reef aquarists, noted authors have made strong arguments that it is prudent to maintain trace elements at or near natural levels. Trace elements can be maintained in several ways. Some aquarists simply do regular partial water changes using fresh seawater (normally synthetic seawater is used), which helps to maintain proper ionic balance in the aquarium. Some authors have argued that regular feeding of an aquarium replenishes most trace elements adequately. However, many aquarists also make regular additions of trace element supplements. Iodine is generally considered to be important for some marine invertebrates and for certain red macroalgae. Iron is generally considered to be important for some corals (e.g. Tubipora sp.) and many of the marine plants such as turtle grass, macroalgae, and turf algae.
In reef tanks, which typically have high densities of calcifying organisms (e.g., coralline algae and stony corals, both of which create calcium carbonate (limestone) skeletons as they grow), proper levels of strontium are also very important. In fact, stony corals in the genus Acropora were considered to be impossible to keep in aquaria until their need for strontium was recognized. Many reef aquarists add strontium on a regular basis, using either a strontium chloride solution or a commercial trace element mix that includes strontium along with iodine and iron and a variety of other trace elements. Other aquarists depend upon release of strontium from their sandbeds as the sand gradually dissolves, or regular water changes as described above (the dosing of strontium is also in hot debate!)

This is a good one http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

All of the source are easly found on the net.If strontium is not good at all then why does every major reef suppliment manufacture make strontium

Hope this helps

 

[aquaticImports]

Strontium is a major component in the skeleton of calcareous algae and stony corals and occurs in the skeleton up to 2-10 times above natural seawater levels. It is a very important requirement for many stony corals. There is some dispute on whether it is a requirement for growth. It is depleted in a closed system over time so it is gong somewhere. In natural seawater it is a minor element and occurs at 8 to 10 mg/l. Strontium additions should be made as indicated on the instruction of commercial preparations. It is a component of most two part calcium/alkalinity additions.

 

[Boomer]

I know all that and those claims, we have talked about them and discussed them with Randy before did his article. There is no info that says that is so, is my point.

Randy states no need to sup Sr++ in that article you posted. There is not one article that proves your long essay. Just because Sr++ is in a Skelton means nothing. As I tried to state Sr++ acts as a substitute ion due to solution kinetics. That means if it is in the water and it can attach itself to a CO3-- site before a Ca++ it will be in the Skelton. Some coral research authors say it acts as a tissue "poison" and the corals is just trying to rid itself of it by dumping it into their Skelton. Sr++ is also a direct function of depth and other parameters.


Many reefers also do not add any Sr++ and things grow just fine also.

limestone

Does not have much of any Sr++. Reason, the Sr++ ion can not fit into the Calcite crystal lattice of which limestone is made up of. However, you will find it in Aragonite, as the Sr++ ion does fit into the lattice. This alone says allot.

Go to our chem forum on RC and type in Strontium and see what you find. My sig below has a link to it .

 

[Boomer]

Randy states no need to sup Sr++ in that article you posted.

Well, not that one. Randy does not sup his tank

I do not believe that either iodine or strontium need to be monitored or dosed, and have not done so for years in my reef aquarium (although I did for several years before that, especially iodine). I discuss my thoughts on them here:


Strontium and the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/chem.htm

Recommendations for Strontium

My recommendation is to maintain strontium in reef aquaria at something approaching natural levels. There is no evidence that strontium at these levels in detrimental to any marine organism (although it might be). There is strong scientific evidence that some organisms need strontium, albeit not the organisms that most reef keepers maintain. Finally, there is anecdotal evidence from a number of advanced aquarists that depleted strontium is detrimental to the growth of corals that many aquarists maintain.

How is one to maintain natural levels? That, of course, necessitates a suitable test for strontium. Perhaps the test kits are suitable for this purpose. If not, sending a sample out to a lab might be a reasonable alternative for some aquarists. If the result comes back in the 6-15 ppm range, there is not likely any action that needs to be taken. If the level is higher than 15 ppm, reducing the strontium levels via water changes with a suitable salt mix may be the best method. If strontium levels are below 6 ppm, adding a strontium supplement may be in order.

If strontium is not good at all then why does every major reef suppliment manufacture make strontium

To sell you something, same for Iodine

 

[shallowreef]

B-ionic was like steroids for my softies. I grew some of my biggest corals with that stuff. But i was told that it was not good by Two out of the three LFS that i go to and trust. So i am between a rock and a hardplace.

I would like to try it again but i am unsure about it.

 

[sryder]

limestone

Does not have much of any Sr++. Reason, the Sr++ ion can not fit into the Calcite crystal lattice of which limestone is made up of. However, you will find it in Aragonite, as the Sr++ ion does fit into the lattice. This alone says allot.

Go to our chem forum on RC and type in Strontium and see what you find. My sig below has a link to it .[/QUOTE]


this brings another question to me boomer.

If sr++ is absorbed through or into aragonite through the crystal lattice wouldnt it be leached back into the system as the aragonite from sand beds dissolves?

 

[sryder]

B-ionic was like steroids for my softies. I grew some of my biggest corals with that stuff. But i was told that it was not good by Two out of the three LFS that i go to and trust. So i am between a rock and a hardplace.

I would like to try it again but i am unsure about it.

what was there reasoning other than having something from a different supplier to buy?

 

[Boomer]

If sr++ is absorbed through or into aragonite through the crystal lattice wouldnt it be leached back into the system as the aragonite from sand beds dissolves?

Yes, if it did that. There is about nil of that going on in most cases. Reason, organics and bacteria coat the grains. The pH has to get in to the mid 7's for aragonite to do anything and that is with a fresh surfaces. Deep down in the SB where the pH may be much lower, there can/may be some dissolution of the aragonite where it would/may leach out.

Normally in a tank, with normal pH, Alk, Mg++ and Ca++ with a fresh aragonite surface exposed to seawater, it will actually cause precip of Mg++ and Ca++ as carbonates. This can actually lower the pH, alkalinity, and Ca++ and Mg++ to some extent.

Along time ago we had a discussion on this . One of the things I brought up was how solubility increase with decreasing grains size or how "points" on grains are more soluble. One issue I had was the use or claim of AragaMilk and it was a nonsense additive. Randy ended up writing this article on the issue.

Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2002/chem.htm

 

[sryder]

Yes, if it did that. There is about nil of that going on in most cases. Reason, organics and bacteria coat the grains. The pH has to get in to the mid 7's for aragonite to do anything and that is with a fresh surfaces. Deep down in the SB where the pH may be much lower, there can/may be some dissolution of the aragonite where it would/may leach out.

Normally in a tank, with normal pH, Alk, Mg++ and Ca++ with a fresh aragonite surface exposed to seawater, it will actually cause precip of Mg++ and Ca++ as carbonates. This can actually lower the pH, alkalinity, and Ca++ and Mg++ to some extent.

when you are saying precipitation you mean its falling out of solution as carbonates? then what happens to the excess carbonates?

they are not going to disolve back to the tank because of the ph's being higher than the mid 7.'s so are they skimmed away?

also if someone went ahead and added new araganite sand to an existing tank this too seems to me that this could cause precipitation and then a drop off in your ca++, mg++, ph and alk. would they fall sharp enough to cause alot of problems or will it only be a subtle change?




Along time ago we had a discussion on this . One of the things I brought up was how solubility increase with decreasing grains size or how "points" on grains are more soluble. One issue I had was the use or claim of AragaMilk and it was a nonsense additive. Randy ended up writing this article on the issue.



Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2002/chem.htm[/QUOTE]

 

[Boomer]

when you are saying precipitation you mean its falling out of solution as carbonates? then what happens to the excess carbonates?

Yes

There are no excessive carbonates they pull most of them out. Ca + CO3-- ===> CaCO3. The grain grows in size. Calcium and carbonate like to form on other carbonate surfaces. These are often called Hi Mg Calcites. There are more soluble than aragonite, pH high 7's and may go back into solution.

also if someone went ahead and added new aragonite sand to an existing tank this too seems to me that this could cause precipitation and then a drop off in your ca++, mg++, ph and alk. would they fall sharp enough to cause allot of problems or will it only be a subtle change?

Usually not, gets into the high 7's. Sometimes this is counteracted on by some of the fines or sharp points going into solution and the pH goes back up. It is a tricky thing and depends on the chemistry of the substrate and solution kinetics. Years ago we test a bunch of carbonate media. It was found that Puka shells are the best at keeping things stable. Crushed coral was the worst. We never tested oolitic aragonite sand.

 

[sryder]

when you are saying precipitation you mean its falling out of solution as carbonates? then what happens to the excess carbonates? [b/]

Yes

There are no excessive carbonates they pull most of them out. Ca + CO3-- ===> CaCO3. The grain grows in size. Calcium and carbonate like to form on other carbonate surfaces. These are often called Hi Mg Calcites. There are more soluble than aragonite, pH high 7's and may go back into solution.

also if someone went ahead and added new aragonite sand to an existing tank this too seems to me that this could cause precipitation and then a drop off in your ca++, mg++, ph and alk. would they fall sharp enough to cause allot of problems or will it only be a subtle change?[./b]

Usually not, gets into the high 7's. Sometimes this is counteracted on by some of the fines or sharp points going into solution and the pH goes back up. It is a tricky thing and depends on the chemistry of the substrate and solution kinetics. Years ago we test a bunch of carbonate media. It was found that Puka shells are the best at keeping things stable. Crushed coral was the worst. We never tested oolitic aragonite sand.

I know years ago crushed coral was the way to go along with i believe was dolomite.
was crushed coral the worse because it would end up back in solution or because it would leach back carbonates at the higher ph's ?

I know we are using arogonite for stability and also surface area due to grain size. what would happen if you used a crushed puka shell as a substrate?
steve

 

[shallowreef]

To answer your question sryder they both told me that it cotains a lot of cholide which over time is bad for corals?? I don't remember exactly because it was a long time ago. But i do remember them saying something about Chloride.

 

[Boomer]

sryder

The purpose of the tests was to show how well the media would buffer the water and keep the pH up, Puka was the best and CC the worst. Meaning the CC was pulling down the pH and not buffering. This would be due to as I said.

I know we are using arogonite for stability and also surface area due to grain size. what would happen if you used a crushed puka shell as a substrate?

All these are aragonite. Crushed Puka may just buffer the water longer, in time it will also be pretty much dead, organics/ bacteria coatings.

 

[aquaticImports]

Is it true that a substraight such as crushed coral will lose it's ability to leach calcium,strontium, and others once it is covered by bacteria

 

[Boomer]

It would be nice if they did, then no additives would be needed. All most all of these substrates, when new, actually pull down the pH, Mg++ and Ca++. This is easy to prove and has been proven by me, John Burleson, Tom Frakes and others, to include tests done in labs that have appeared in geology journals and seawater chem books. Randy has also discussed it in his articles

 

[My2heartboys]

so molybdenum has no other use in aquaria. is there strontiums out there that do have it and which ones should you avoid?

I use Salifert brand Strontium

Anne

 

[sausage fingers]

Hi,

This hobby is great i posted a phrase some time ago on one of the threads and it said "you ask the same question to a thousand people and you will get a thousand different answers" its a hobby full of contradictions probably due to no 2 setups the same, the mind boggles!

 

[sryder]

we had formed a reef club in my area for that exact reason. we set up meetings at everyones house so we can see how people are doing things a little different to end up with the same results and that is to provide a beneficial environment for our animals. its amazing the money spent on our systems to grow some corals and maybe have a few fish to boot.