Advice needed for LARGE tank upgrade

[trido]

I guess I'll elaborate now about the mag pumps. Like Danno said above, they tend to weep saltcreep out of the seals if not outright leak. Also I tried to use a mag24 at first on a CL and the thing was so loud I downsized to a mag18 within a day. Even a mag 18 IMO is too loud for a CL pump if it isnt submerged. The problem is that the impellar housing is thin and lets alot of cavitaion noise escape. The only way to quite one is to choke it back. There is no quieting a mag 24 no matter what IMO.
also they tend to creat more heat than a more expensive better built pump.

I have a sequence barracuda (4500GPH) along with about 7000GPH of powerheads on my 210 mixed reef. Even if it were only a FOWLR I would still run near 5000+ GPH to ensure proper flow to get detritous to the sump where it can be removed from the tank.

I would have to agree, 2-3000GPH isnt nearly enough flow for a 360G SW tank no matter whats its purpose. Keep in mind, the ocean isnt a placid place no matter what the depths. IMO a strong fish is a healthy fish. They can get fat and lazy too.

 

[Myteemouse]

The tank is just sitting in my carport!
you can use it
I'll just have to take it to Jason when your done!!!

 

[Myteemouse]

Oh and for your CL
I'm gonna put a dart right under m tank suspended up so no head loss and also put two 2900 PH's
thats 9000 gph flow in a 125!!!

 

[trido]

In the world of CL's, head loss is non existant. Pipe friction is your biggest enemy. Your taking water from one location of the tank and moving it to the next location. There is equal pressure on the pump from both sides. We'll say +1 on the output but -1 on the intake equaling zero. Now when you take the same pump and pull water from the sump with the same -1 on the intake and then put +6 on the output you get head pressure. Your moving water from one tank and pumping it up hill, but gravity feeding it back down. Does that make sence?
Im sure others can explain it better than me.

 

[danno14]

Well done Duane (me too lazy )

Changing to the largest pipe possible will decease frictional losses by a factor of roughly 10. By going from 1" to 2" pipe, you will experience close to 10 times LESS friction loss.

 

[nsamouroux]

Just brought home the beast yesterday! Nice little 10-hour round trip drive from Seattle to South Beach / Newport Oregon in my Wrangler towing a flatbed trailer :lol:. The tank is just about flawless! Smudges and whatnot in the pics are from it being out in the rain last night. Absolutely no scratches, scuffs, etc. Dimensions are (Length x Width x Height) 8' x 3' x 2', made of 1/2" acrylic with black back panel and removable fitted lids for everything. The identically-built 40-gallon acrylic sump boxes are nearly flawless as well. Everything was custom made for the original owner (Tenecor brand tank). The tank itself was never drilled; the person used VERY large HOB overflow boxes. The stand is in very good shape as well, a few minor surface rust spots, but I'll clean those out / POR-15 them, and then coat the entire thing in truck bed liner or some sort of anti-corrosion spray coatings. Even factoring in transport costs, I couldn't beat the price; we would have easily spent double what this tank cost to get something in the 200-240 gallon range from the Seattle area.

As for the part that actually matters... PICTURES!

Full tank shot... Or as close as I can get with a small yard anyways:

The stand, which has a handy raised steel shelf to hold sumps and equipment above the floor:

Our three-year-old checking out his new "shark tank". He's standing at the mid-point of the tank / stand for reference:

Sumps, light fixtures, misc pumps / powerheads (we'll be putting halides on it, but these fixtures will be nice supplements with moonlights):

After seeing (and moving!) this monster, I've decided that there's no way in heck that we can put this thing in our current townhouse. As previously mentioned, the humidity alone from this thing would wreak havoc, and the weight of it would collapse our floor in short order! I will be leaving this tank in our back yard or in the garage until we purchase a home, which will give me plenty of time to plan everything out and slowly accumulate all the additional equipment we'll need to upgrade from our 100-gallon setup. Previous feedback in this thread (closed loop setup / design, etc) will be very useful!

 

[burning2nd]

right off the bat.. your gonna need 2 buckets....

7 rubber maids?
lotta heaters... lotta power...

maybe start the water first then do the change...

 

[boosted306]

Wow you are going to need floor supports.

 

[boosted306]

EDIT: If it were mine I would do a total of 500 gallon system. I would buy a 200 gallon rubbermaid container and section it for the sump.

 

[MC Lighting]

I am in a townhouse and would not worry about the floor supporting the weight as you stated above the actual weight per sq. in. is lower than what you have now.

I will tell you as some have stated above your plans for the CL are very underpowered. I have a QO 6000 on my 180 with 3 outlets and other than circulation provides absolutely NO pressure. I have a Barracuda for my return pump it has a 3/4" line to my 26g, a 1" line split into 4 outlets on the 90g and then a 1" to each of the returns on the 180 and even with that big of a pump the pressure is good but is by no means crazy flow. When I move I will be doing a Closed loop drilled as you are planning and it will have a Dart for each tank alone after knowing what I do now.

As for humidity I run a dehumidifier in my TH and it is fine it keeps up with little problems. This is with about the same amount of water volume that you will have and all of my tanks are open topped. I found the key is air circulation I use a fan to move the air around the room to keep the DH always getting new air and the dried air moved to the opposite end of the room. Power more than anything will end up being your enemy the Townhouses around here just are not meant for these setups. I ran 4 new 20A circuits to my tanks to deal with this. Something you must consider is that a dehumidifier will heat the room as its side effect so plan accordingly and they consume about the same amount of power as a normal window A/C unit being that is exactly what they are.

Other things to consider is that with this size tank you are running larger lights and with that is more power and more heat to deal with. On all but the coldest nights my tanks raise about 3 degrees by the end of the lighting cycle and the room temperature will increase by as much as 5. When I bought my last dehumidifier I spent more money and bought one that also is a vent van and air conditioner as when the outside temps start averaging above 60 I change over form DH mode to A/C mode same effect for humidity but venting the heat out instead of into the house.

My chiller runs rarely but during the hot summer it will run... I shift my lighting schedule during summer months to start around 8pm as to not compete with the sun for the a/c. You can do a lot to cool the tank with fans and such but you are going to increase your room humidity at the same time so that's something you need to weigh out.

Sorry for the rambling just want to give you some things to think about... And if your going to move in a few months wait to set up the tank its just not worth the effort to set it up only to tear it down by the time it is just settling in....

 

[nsamouroux]

No worries on the rambling, I do the same! I'd be a moron to disregard posts in a thread where I'm using more experienced people as a sounding board :lol:.

We're certainly waiting until after we move to set this up. I wouldn't worry about a 200 or perhaps 240 gallon on our townhouse flooring, but this tank will weigh in around 5000 lbs and perhaps more depending on sumps / refugium sizes. As for the flow / turnover, my current plans are to have two Hammerhead pumps running the closed loop, and a Dart or Barracuda pump for the sump return; trying to stay at roughly 10x display volume through sump, depending on the throughput of the skimmer we get (probably a dual-beckett). I don't want any powerheads at all in this tank if I can avoid it, so I'm hoping the following will get me where I want for a mixed reef (not too many SPS, but certainly some!). Our 100-gallon reef runs at 45x system turnover, my goal for this large tank is 35x minimum. Certain areas of course will have higher flow than others, which is probably where I'll place any SPS corals we get. I don't want to blow away our anemones or soft corals, so 50+ times turnover is probably excessive

5800 gph x2 from Hammerheads = 11600 gph (should have no real head on CL) and 3600-4000 gph from sump return will put me at 35-40x system volume turnover, depending on size of sump and refugium. The sump will probably be 80 gallons, the refugium will probably be a 30-40ish gallon tank (perhaps a 55-gallon) sitting alongside and slightly above the display to gravity drain pods and whatnot. I might have to put in a third closed loop pump on the back of the tank, or just add eductors to the lockline closed loop ports of the dual Hammerheads.

Lighting will be no problem at all, I've already got 1050 watts of halides on my 100-gallon tank that will migrate over. Two 400-watt bulbs on the ends, a 250-watt or two in the center, and will add two 48" PC fixtures (50/50 with moonlights) for supplemental lighting in the center. The tank is only 24" deep, so the 400s and 250s should be plenty of light, and I will have a bulb every 2 sq. feet across the surface. I want to build a canopy for this beast, which will keep the bulbs about 12" above the surface panel of the tank. Pendants and whatnot are not an option for us with a 3-year-old and various other pets. Need an enclosed system!

I'll post a Sketchup image this weekend some time to show my current layout ideas so people can pick them apart

 

[MC Lighting]

sounding good the hammerheads will definatly be a good choice they move some seriosu water and are very efficient for what they do. I do hope however you are planning a fish room because with that many pumps and ballasts heat and noise in the room is going to be a major issue.... Even only running a single Barracuda and one QO 6000 my tanks are louder than I would like for my living room and it is all enclosed in a sound deadend window seat.

 

[nsamouroux]

sounding good the hammerheads will definatly be a good choice they move some seriosu water and are very efficient for what they do. I do hope however you are planning a fish room because with that many pumps and ballasts heat and noise in the room is going to be a major issue.... Even only running a single Barracuda and one QO 6000 my tanks are louder than I would like for my living room and it is all enclosed in a sound deadend window seat.

I remember seeing a build thread or similar for that layout of yours, interesting idea! Ideally we will make a fish room, but that all depends on what sort of house we find . Noise isn't a huge problem for us (a 150lb Malamute and a toddler? Silence is rare! ), but I'll sound-proof as much as possible, or do the fish room setup. Since we've got such a huge stand, I've been considering keeping everything inside of it, and skinning it (with matching wood canopy), but using a layer or two of Dynamat or similar sound-deadening liner on the inside of the stand. This would make heat an issue from all the insulation, but fans and / or a chiller could probably handle this, and noise levels should be almost non-existant. The inside would have to be painted or otherwise lined to deal with humidity, but that is a requirement on any wood structure under / around a large tank in my opinion.

In the end, this is why I've always wanted saltwater tanks I never run out of things to mess around with, and the DIY options are endless! I got bored out of my mind with freshwater tropicals, and even cichlids, but the 100-gallon reef has been a great experience! I'll probably be somewhat disappointed when I finally have the 360-gallon up and running, because the planning of it is half the fun :badgrin:.

 

[MC Lighting]

lol this is true the one thing to consider about the noise is the actual vibration transfer more than the sound itself even with all of the insulation and dampening of the motor mounts I still have in my opinion an excessive amount of vibration/noise due to the wood floors resonating...

 

[nsamouroux]

lol this is true the one thing to consider about the noise is the actual vibration transfer more than the sound itself even with all of the insulation and dampening of the motor mounts I still have in my opinion an excessive amount of vibration/noise due to the wood floors resonating...

Good point... I figured a Dynamat-type material would deaden all mechanical noise (heck, it works for road noise in a Jeep Wrangler!), but floor noise would be an issue from vibrations and there's not much I can do with the 120mm fans I use on our canopy for cooling the halides (87cfm each, three fans ). The stand will be coated with Herculiner / LineX or some similar bedliner material (cheaper than a coat of POR15 or powdercoating!) for corrosion protection, which also does an excellent job insulating against vibration noise on the metal itself. I'd be nervous about putting any sort of padding between the floor and tank, which would affect stability / leveling. Perhaps the answer to vibration noise from pumps, etc is to toss a layer of dynamat on the equipment shelf below the sumps / pumps?

 

[MC Lighting]

I have 1" thick rubber padding below the pumps and although cuts it dramatically its the plumbing that is the bigges culprit for the transfer of vibrations... The fan issue can be resolved if you can plumb a vent duct into the wall behind the tank and have the fan in the attic or outside pulling the air out, that is how I will handle it when I move to a house eventually. I think in a raised floor one thing that could be done is spray expanding foam into the pockets below the floor this would keep the floor from acting as a resonator of course a concrete floor is the ultimate answer if on a single story.