All About Liverock

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Krish what you must keep in mind is that LR and/or LS dont do anything, its the bacteria that does everything. So in a nitrogen cycle you have nitrogen reducing bacteria involved. With Phosphate you have most bacteria along with a whole host of other things that love to fix it to their matrix.

ac7av one thing to keep in mind when it comes to P and that is that pretty much everything wants it and everything needs it. Also their are different types so your going to have to stay with me on this it might be a bit long. So here are the main types of P:

Particulate inorganic phoshorus
Is mostly not biologically available. It is phosphate associated with phosphate minerals and adsorbed on metal hydroxides and other solids in the aquarium. It enters the aquarium mostly in fish food and animal feces and it can be removed by siphoning out detritus and cleaning filter media. It also enters our tanks by adding argonite sand and LR.It is formed within an aquarium by sorption and precipitation of dissolved inorganic phosphorus.

Dissolved organic phosphorus
Is biologically available to bacteria and possibly to algae. It enters the aquarium from animal waste. Bacterial and algal phosphatase activity convert dissolved organic phosphorus to phosphates.

Particulate organic phosphorus
Isn't available to plants and algae, but is available to animals. It enters the aquarium as plant detritus, fish food and feces. It can be removed by siphoning and filter cleaning. It is converted to dissolved phosphates by phosphatase activity. The phosphatase activity is partly due to detritivores but also to bacteria and possibly algae.

OK so when available P enters the tank, bacteria are the first inline, they immediatly go after it. Now bacteria just cant eat it they have to create a liquid soup (for lack of a better word) with in this soup they can disovle and store P and use it. When they do this they allow for the growth of more bacteria and thus more of this bacterial bile. It just keeps growing and growing. Now these bacteria and thier bile are covering all surfaces of our reef tanks, from rocks to sand to power heads. Anything that maybe percipated out of the water column (say such as kalk and P) will not make it past this biofilm of bacteria and bile. they need it and want it and not much will stop them. So even if its percipatated as a solid it will be broken down with in hours.
Ok so this is happening everywhere in our tanks constantly. In the rocks this is also the case. the bacteria continue to mass and to create more of this biomass with in the rock, as it masses it begins to move to the outer surfaces of the rock, we call this bacterial tugur. Once it reaches the surface of the rock it begins to shed off, most folks call it detritus, it is actual bacterial flock (died bacteria, bacterial shells, unused organics, particulate dust, and bacteria fuilds) it is also heavier then water so it will sink once blown free on the surface, if not blown of it will become food for algae (usually). This process is a constant 24/7/365 type of thing.

Now a big one we must also remember is that when we add LS and LR to our tanks we a basically adding something that is already super saturated with Phosphate. In the case of sand most folks use argonite either mined from above ground or collected from below the water. This sand is completely saturated with P from biological processes or run off from the above water sources. This P is bound up in the sand and not available, so no worries at the begining. With LR it is the same concept but the binding of P is more of a biologcal process from when it was a coral and/or after it died. The concept however is the same, the argonite is super saturated with P if it is in either a rock form or a sand from. matures you will begin to have a large population of bacteria that will use thier enzynes to free up the bound P and use it as a food source, also the PH of the water will lower, causing the sand to also melt (the so called buffer capability of the sand) as this happens the P that was once bound now becomes free. As the populations of the bacteria begin to increase so does the byproducts they use in order to eat. Now the combined action of the bacteria population increase along with the biofilm and fuilds they use will drive out wards and upwards (basically amass) in the case of LR it will cause detritus to shed, in the case of sand substraights it causes the mass to move upwards as the sides and bottom of the tank force it into that direction. Eventually (based on bioload/feeding/maintence) this mass will reach the surface, it is at that point it becomes available to algae and so on.

So in other words your LR and?or sand will become a source for Phosphates in your system. As always it is better to do some simple testing for P on the surface of the sand and/or rock to see if that is the case in your tank. Also rememebr that because P is so highly desired that if you get a reading its telling you that even though its so prized their is so much available the biologicals can not keep up with it.

Anyway a long one. Let me know if I muddied it to much.


Mojo
 
Krish what you must keep in mind is that LR and/or LS dont do anything, its the bacteria that does everything. So in a nitrogen cycle you have nitrogen reducing bacteria involved. With Phosphate you have most bacteria along with a whole host of other things that love to fix it to their matrix.

Mojo


Yea, sometimes I guess we throw around the work "liverock" as if it itself is actually doing the work. Guess it's a general term that we have become accustomed to using. I do realize though that it is nothing more than surface area for the bacteria to grow and live. :)
 
I will have to read threw that a couple more times to absorb all that but thank you for describing the possess.

A question on the test kits then, what kind of phosphates do they measure? Is it even necessary to test for it if the PH is in a normal range? It sounds like no matter what you will get a reading and I have been getting a trace reading on my test for phosphates, but I have no idea what type it is and what to do about it.

Is this bacteria affected by light?

I thought I was suffering from a cayno bacteria problem but it just doesn’t completely fit the description. This is part of why I was asking about the bubbles on the surface of the rock and sand. What I have is very dark purple growth threw the day on the rocks and bottom of the tank. I don’t really have any sand in the tank. The growth by the end of the day will nearly cover everything in the tank that is exposed to light. It never grows in the shadows. It also grows in very high water flow areas. In the evening when I turn off the MH lights I start getting bubbling from the rocks. The film will start bubbling off of the rocks. By morning time all the rock is clear except for a dusty gray look that blows off easily with a power head or baster. It almost sounds like the dust your describing that is left over by the bacteria
 
A question on the test kits then, what kind of phosphates do they measure?
Dissolved. An easy way to look at it is that dissovled is free in the water. Particulate inorganic is P that is attached to dead solid things and particulate organic is P attached to living things.
Is it even necessary to test for it if the PH is in a normal range? It sounds like no matter what you will get a reading and I have been getting a trace reading on my test for phosphates, but I have no idea what type it is and what to do about it.
The Ph in your tank will never go low enough to melt argonite. Where it does happen is in the anaerobic zones of the sand and rock, so deeper inside them, from their it begins to leach out. The form of P you are testing fo is dissolved organic P. As per dealing with it their are a number of deifferent means but it is always better to do some testing first and find out where or what your source is. SO for testing you will want to test the surface of the sand and the rock, then you can mash up some of the food you are feeding in like a shot glass and test it. ANyway stuff like that will give you a look into where it is coming from, so do that first and then you will know.

ac7av your issue does sound like cyano, but then cyano would not be the issue it would be the result. Cyano is a combo of both algae and bacteria that work together for the same cause, and they are very good at it. The Algae creates the enviroment and the bacteria does the reducing. Its kind of a long story so start another thread and we can explore it.

Mojo
 
Mike, question about the Rock, you say it Sheds and I've seen this over and over, rock that sheds crap constantly, like it won't stop. The question is, at times it seems the rock itself just becomes clogged up in spots and doesn't seem to shed as well. Is this true or just my imagination?
 
No Scott that happens for sure. If you can picture in your head the inner working of a peice of live rock it is full of pathways. Now these pathways are prime real estate for more then just bacteria, algae wants some, sponges want alot bacteria themselves create biolfilms stuffed with protiens and so on and then you have the variety of critters that set up shop. SO yes if these pathways can get clogged, the main culprits for plugging though are sponges. Their will be a point where the rock becomes more of a producer of problems the a solver of them. At that point we usually say its time to cook the rock

Mojo
 
WOW i understood ALL of this and can not only SEE but apply what your saying. Husbandry is very important, Water flow sees to have a part, filtering and water changes are key. I'm saying very little to express what was said Mojo but can see the cycle and how the parts inter connect; also how TANK CRASH can occure. Thanks so much Very nice write up.
 
Dtech07 good to see you back!! Yea the one MOST critical thing in keeping a reef is to have an understanding of how things work. This way you dont have to rely on opinion or just take shots in the dark


Mojo
 
True it's amazing how we know the something but once some pants the picture to help "SEE" it it becomes clear and you also see what you must adjust. I look forward to these and other articles like this one from other members to help me understand FULLY what i've gotten myself into. Thanks for the Welcome back it's been a stinker:painkiller:.Nice write up and thanks for everyones time and knowledge, i'll see some of you at the BOB FS.
 
Ok, here's a loop I want to throw in, the Rock is made from the exoskeletons of dead corals right? So the question is, I have this huge hard coral that was dried out, will it be useful like LR to supply beneficial bacteria?
 
Ahh...Gotcha. Not sure why, but for some reason I thought you said the nitrate turned back to ammonia not ammonium. :confused:. I need to start reading things a bit closer.

So on to the phosphates...Unfortunately it seems liverock cannot process phosphates in the same way as it does ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so therefore I'd assume it is useless when it comes to phosphates. It almost seems like without good husbandry, skimming, mechanical filtration etc that liverock can actually add to a phosphate problem because if I have it correct, as the bacteria processes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, the rock sheds as a result which is where detritus comes from and any detritus allowed to sit in the tank and not removed, only increases phosphate levels. So am I heading in the right direction on that or off base a bit again?? :)


I have a question regarding this peticular part of the conversation, which is really good by the way. A bit deep for me to understand first time thru (due to being out of the hobby for 10 years) but very interesting. Anyway, regarding the conversation about detritus and allowing it to sit. I have heard a couple different things about how to deal with this. First is to clean it off the LS and tank walls and do water changes to get rid of it and the 2nd is to leave it alone and let it run it's course in the tank and eventually it will disappear, almost over night. I am not sure what to do about this once it happens. I don't have my tank up and running yet but want to know what to do when it happens.
 
Well detritus won't disappear, but rather just build up. If it would just disappear on it's own then life would be great and alot of these filters we use to trap them and powerheads we use to keep it in suspension to be filtered out wouldn't be needed anymore. Un-fortunately, it builds up if left in the tank (well all that isn't either filtered out, used up by corals as a food source, or eaten by some clean up crews). Just on it's own sitting, it will just accumulate. :)


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I have a question regarding this peticular part of the conversation, which is really good by the way. A bit deep for me to understand first time thru (due to being out of the hobby for 10 years) but very interesting. Anyway, regarding the conversation about detritus and allowing it to sit. I have heard a couple different things about how to deal with this. First is to clean it off the LS and tank walls and do water changes to get rid of it and the 2nd is to leave it alone and let it run it's course in the tank and eventually it will disappear, almost over night. I am not sure what to do about this once it happens. I don't have my tank up and running yet but want to know what to do when it happens.

hey Dean, glad your posting up like this, please feel free to stir up the pot:) We have a ton, really a Ton of threads like this that needs discussing!, Let her rip!:cheer2:
 
Okay, I getting some good live rock, uncurred. I going to put it in a tub with a heater and pump for circulation. I don't have an extra skimmer for tubs. I don't really want to puchase that. Will the rock be okay without a skimmer and what are the actual steps for doing this? Change water every week or everyday......

Thanks.
 
A question about rock. I have 50 pounds of Marco Rock which is a quarried type of rock from south Florida that people seem to review favorably. I will be redoing the aquascaping in my 90 gallon softie LPS DT and using it as base under my existing rock. The rock is supposed to arrive today and i am planning on throwing it in a 40 gal breeder with some power heads and RODI water to start rinsing it, i will let it run till saturday changing the water every night when i get home from work. Then the plan is to place it in DT this weekend. My question is, do you all think this is enough time to rinse out any detritus or other bad stuff that might be in the rock before introducing it into my well establised DT. Is plain RODI ok to use or do i need Salt water? should i add a heater, will that have any benefit? Does anyone have any experience with Marco Rock?
Thanks
Ich
 
You may want to wait longer and cycle the rock first in your 40g tank. You need the same type salt as your tank and temps etc.Once fully cycled again you can add it to the tank, test test test! If you rinse in regular water then you will make it cycle even more and would hurt your tank If added like that.
 
Is this rock "live" in any way or is it just dried out base rock without any type of life in it whatsoever that you are buying? That will make all the difference IMO. Completely dead and dried out base rock would have no die off because it contains no life in it to die off. Let us know exactly what type of rock it is you are buying. Going by your post it's hard to tell exactly what you are getting. Part of sounds like live rock then part of it sounds like dead base rock. :)


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