Almost two months old!!

[slomonkey]

Hi folks,

i had a couple of questions , everything is going pretty well
i had posted earlier that i had lost a small gold band maroon clown somewhat mysteriously
lately (today) his mate died seemed fine in the morning then a few hours later we found her stuck to the overflow dead as a doornail ,i am somewhat confused
by the quickness of her demise

it makes me wonder if these wild caught fish were caught with chemicals that damaged them ??

everybody else seems happy

except for one frogspawn frag and a torch coral that retracted and died overnight?

inhabitants

75G (no sump)
500w halide 1400k
260w pc actnic
seaclear venturi skimmer
2 hydor korialas 20's
900 gph circ pump
50 lbs venuatu uncured
about 10 or so pounds of clean non-live rock
crushed coral substrate
hammer coral
torch coral
candycane coral
some zoos
aviapora(spelling)
birds nest frags
monti frags
cabbage coral gray
cabbage coral purple (died???)
purple tilefish
black ocellaris pair
male gold band maroon (tiny)
lawnmower blennie
starry blennie
yellowhead jawfish
misc hermits and snails
tried to add 2 anemones (I KNOW ,my son says i need a shock collar for when i go to the lfs)i donated them back after 2 days they didnt look happy and it was stressing me out!!!!!


water perameters
amonia 0
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
phos 0 (prob not really)
KH 12
calc 440


just curios if anyone had any ideas on the mysterious deaths ,i am very sad those two were really cool fish and im not so interested in killing off my fish friends if you know what i mean

thanks,
peter

 

[slomonkey]

think i may have found the problem !!

Last night i did some gazing into the rock late at night and i couldnt find much ,
right about when i was ready to give up i noticed something large in a whole in one of the live rocks looked like a giant millipede i watched for a while but it never came all the way out maybe only three or four inches its hard to judge size but its probably 1/4 inch in diameter and i would guess 7 or 8 inches long

Ive done some searching and it seems to be a dead ringer for a
Hermodice carunculata, a not so great fireworm that likes to eat corals gorgonians and anemone's, although 50 lbs of my live rock is from venuatu, there
is on piece of rock about a 3 pound peice that may be carribean, that is where this bugger lives

Ill post a pick when i catch it , wish me luck!!!!!!

Happy Holidays

 

[dnjan]

I find it hard to believe that with that many inhabitants, in that young a tank, you have zeros for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. What brand test kits are you using?

 

[mfinn]

50 lbs. of uncured live rock = uncycled tank

 

[CarlaW]

50 lbs. of uncured live rock = uncycled tank

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really think that you should grab a large chunk of patience!!! That to me is way to many inhabitants to have in a 2 month old tank, that has basically uncured live rock. JMHO

 

[RejectReefer]

slow down! Only way to do this hobby right is to do it slowly! Water changes are going to be your new best friend.......30% once a week minimum

 

[slomonkey]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really think that you should grab a large chunk of patience!!! That to me is way to many inhabitants to have in a 2 month old tank, that has basically uncured live rock. JMHO

nit sure what "thats basically uncured rock stuff is all about ,i gota tell you the tank is cycled ,tank was rock only for about a month,with amonia and nitrate off the chart for probably half of that ultimately balancing out to around zero,since adding critters and feeding at first the amonia and nitrate came up to like .25 for an evening only,since then the tank has been stable

and yes the test rersulte are real ,not sure why i would lie,as far as what test kits they are API ,not sure if they are the most accurate but i sincerely doubt the are so inaccurate as to be testing ZEROS in my apparently uncycled and deadly tank ease up there trigger the the tank is cycled and the rock is in fact cured , and the cycle was complete with water testing ZERO for amonia nitrate nitrite and phosphate and as of five minutes ago it still does,
now do you really thing that my toxic uncycled water would be killing my fish. , whatever im just saying


thanks for the help

 

[mfinn]

Well, let's see.
Fish are dieing, corals are dieing.
The tank way overstocked for only 2 months old.
Plus, tanks usually don't have 0 nitrate with that many critters in it, this early.

I'd look into new test kits.

 

[CarlaW]

Your list specifically states uncured rock???????????????????? A 2 month old tank is hardly done with a cycle even tho you test reveal zero, you have a large bioload for a 75!!!!!!! I am sorry if I offended you. Just in case your test kits are off, have you taken a water sample to your LFS and had them test it? Something is killing your critters and you have to look at your system first.

 

[dnjan]

You may think that the tone of comments posted seem harsh, but most people would add the amount of livestock you have over the course of a year or more, not two months.

If I read your stocking list correctly, you have (had) two different clown pairs in the tank at the same time. I don't really think that a 75 is large enough to host two different species of clown. Perhaps the ocellaris bullied the "tiny" maroons to death.

 

[mfinn]

I am sorry if I offended you.

I meant no offense either.

Just stating what seemed to be the most likey problem

 

[tat2z_21]

Every one here is correct in stating that though your tank is 2 months old it is not mature enough to hold that many animals and could be the problem. However I remember when I was new, before I found reef frontiers and I know that I made the same costly mistake and learned. I find it hard to believe that we are the only ones out there that have upset the reef gods in such a way. Stick it in there take it slow and learn from what your mistakes. I also believe that most people on here would say that this is an expensive hobby and that we routinely learn from our expensive mistakes.

 

[slomonkey]

Every one here is correct in stating that though your tank is 2 months old it is not mature enough to hold that many animals and could be the problem. However I remember when I was new, before I found reef frontiers and I know that I made the same costly mistake and learned. I find it hard to believe that we are the only ones out there that have upset the reef gods in such a way. Stick it in there take it slow and learn from what your mistakes. I also believe that most people on here would say that this is an expensive hobby and that we routinely learn from our expensive mistakes.

yep, and I thought I was being patient, the two pairs really kept to there own sides of the tank and the ocellaris's are about as passive a fish as I have ever seen really doesn’t seem possible. But please help me understand here, there is clearly something I am missing. When is the tank done with its cycle??
Chemically according to my test kits ,faulty as they may indicated that the tank
Has made a huge cycle and remained stable since I test the water often and only noticed spikes after I first began to feed the fish now not at all. I cycled the tank by taking 50 lbs of uncured Vanuatu live rock and placing it in my tank ,kind of amazing to watch the process of everything(most)things dying on the rock and once the death and decay was complete begin to regrow,sponges hydroids starfish worms(on of witch is in serious question <coralavore>)and crabs. The question is what is it about a young tank that makes it unhealthy for its inhabitants? I am just trying to learn here and believe me I take no pleasure in losing my fish friends.

Weather I added the animals too early is beside the point now, the current fish occupants are

Lawnmower blenny
Starry blenny
Black ocellaris pair
Purple tilefish

The blennys went in about a week apart, and I think the ocellaris went in five or so days later (with the maroon pair, since departed), the rest are listed in order.

I have had no further coral losses <I suspect the frags were damaged or sick when I purchased them or maybe the worm (fireworm)??

Of the missing fish (maroon clown, smaller Maroon clown, yellow head jawfish, maroon clown replacement)

I have only seen one of these fish dead, meaning the rest are rotting in the overflow or in the rocks, or eaten ,I notice small increase in amonia after feeding I feel like i would see something if i had dead fish rotting in the tank , no?? and lets just for amusement assume the test kits arent faulty K? they do afterall register when the levels are higher than normal.

The only common thread is the black oc don’t go in the rocks, jaw fish and maroons always went in the rocks and they disappeared! other difference blacks are tank bred not wild caught

Wouldn’t really toxic water have killed my black ocellaris, and or blennies too??
Not to mention corals??

I am trying to learn here, I will have the LFS the water but seriously it’s not as simple as nitrate or ammonia

Thanks,

 

[tat2z_21]

Well the major difference between the new tank and a mature tank is the amount of benificial bacteria that helps the tank break down the proteins and helps the chemical balance of the tank. Though it may have cycled your rock may not have enough of the necessary bacteria to compete with the fluctuation of ammonias and nitrites. Just my thought but I could seriously be wrong. I am also a newbie and have been learning from my mistakes for 2 years. So don't let this discourage you from your goal, a beautiful reef to call your own.

 

[dnjan]

It takes a while to establish a sufficient number of the various beneficial bacteria necessary for the conversion of ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate and nitrate to NO2. Thus the necessity for slowly increasing the number of inhabitants in your tank. Every time another animal is added, the bacteria population must adjust. And when an animal dies, there is generally a spike in waste that must be processed. Older tanks will have populations of critters as well (bristleworms, etc.) to help deal with a dead animal and avoid a big spike.

Assuming that your test results are correct, and you truly have not had any measurable ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in your tank since the initial cycle of the rock (other than a bit of ammonia after you feed???), you must have some super bacteria that most of the rest of us have not had the opportunity to experience.

As to why only some of your fish died (and not all), there are many factors that contribute to stress. Water quality is one, but overcrowding, aggressiveness, temperature fluctuations, etc. can also contribute. And some fish will be more resistant to stress than others.

 

[dnjan]

I've been thinking about your tank some more, and I just don't see there being enough live rock for that many fish to accomplish the nitrate to NO2 conversion. The process requires a "no-oxygen-zone". There is definetely a no-oxygen-zone inside the live rock, but the process is slow and I just don't think there is enough live rock for the amount of waste that must be processed.

Some tanks accomplish the reduction of nitrate to NO2 in the sand bed, but I believe you mentioned having crushed coral (not sugar-size sand). You would need an extremely thick layer to develope a reducing zone in a crushed coral bed.

So that is why I am having such difficulty with a zero nitrate test result.

 

[slomonkey]

I've been thinking about your tank some more, and I just don't see there being enough live rock for that many fish to accomplish the nitrate to NO2 conversion. The process requires a "no-oxygen-zone". There is definetely a no-oxygen-zone inside the live rock, but the process is slow and I just don't think there is enough live rock for the amount of waste that must be processed.

Some tanks accomplish the reduction of nitrate to NO2 in the sand bed, but I believe you mentioned having crushed coral (not sugar-size sand). You would need an extremely thick layer to develope a reducing zone in a crushed coral bed.

So that is why I am having such difficulty with a zero nitrate test result.

I should have been more specific, when I set up the tank I did use finer live sand I am not sure its sugar sand but its close I added some larger crushed coral
Later as it seemed to be more appropriate for some of the critters to have a deeper sand bed in witch to live .tested again today with my API test kit
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
phosphate 0 (there is algae growing in the tank and I suspect its using the phosphate ,although it seems this would mean there I still zero in the water column)
Calcium 440
KH 11
PH 8.4

Red sea test kit
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
These where the only two alternative kits I have

these tests where taken in the afternoon ,after a fairly heavy feeding 3 types of hikari (mysis,bloodworms and I think its marine select or some such)and DTs phito and golden pearls for the corals (target fed)

Either no rise in parameters after feeding or the tests were too soon after to register .

I am not sure how long to wait after feeding to monitor any negative effects from feeding.

All of the corals appear to be doing well the candy canes are eating and splitting
The Euphyllia's all appear healthy with visible buds on there stalks ,I have yet to see any sweeper or feeding tentacles from these



I do still suspect some sort of predation contributed to the death of at least two of the missing fish, I tested the water daily after there disappearance and never saw any rise in unhealthy chemicals

Thanks for all you input ,I will still have the water checked by the lfs when I go next

I appreciate all of your input,

Thanks,
Peter

 

[krisfal]

I really would recommend buying some better test kits. I started out with the API master test kits and was getting zero nitrates, when I switched to Salifert the same tank tested > 25 nitrates. I now use the Elos brand test kits. Quality test kits are expensive but a small investment compared to losing livestock. I am real suspicious that your test kits are not giving you accurate readings since you saw no change after the fish disappeared. I recently lost a sandsifter goby (did not adjust to the tank switch) in a 400g system and saw a change in my nitrates as a result, by the time I found the carcass not much was left after the crabs, bristleworms etc were done with it but it still was enough to cause a testable amount of nitrates.

You are not going to see any quick change in parameters right after feeding. Ammonia occurs as any uneaten food rots, nitrites are a result of the ammonia being broken down by bacteria, and nitrates are a result of the breakdown of nitrites.

A tank never is truly "cycled" every change will cause some sort of mini cycle. A tank will mature over time (likely a year or more) and changes will have less impact, but changes should still occur slowly to allow the tank time to adjust. Reef tanks can test your patience, you want to have that instant reef but trying to obtain it too quickly will result in lots of loss of livestock and $$$. I added several tangs to a 130g tank within a couple of months, ended up getting ich, losing fish having to scramble to get a quarantine tank set-up . . . . Now when I get a new fish it goes in to the QT and spends a month or 2 in there before moving to the display, not only does this help prevent adding diseases to the tank and give time to teach the new fish to eat the right foods, it also keeps the addition of new fish slow.

The worm you are seeing is likely just a typical bristle worm, fireworms are pretty rare hitchhikers while the bristleworm is quite common and a beneficial clean-up critter.

I hope you have done some research on the tilefish as my understanding is that they are not good aquarium fish and typically do not survive in captivity long term-all of my books recommend leaving them in the ocean.

I hope you do not view this post as harsh, I am only trying to be helpful (as I am sure every one else is). Most of us have made many mistakes along the way and are only trying to share our experiences to help you avoid them. I am 3 years into this hobby and still feel like a newbie, there is so much to learn about!

 

[Myteemouse]

I only added a few little Zoo frags after 4 months of the tank being set up and only 4 LITTLE fish are in mine still!
I know I can't add anymore to the tank for another 3+ months but I also have about 50lbs fully cured (4 months in a old established tank befor i got it) and 40 lbs of uncured (dry) rock in my 29 gallon tank and 30 gallon sump!
(I know the sump has more water than the tank but I'm preping to set up a 150 gallon system so I'm using it to cure dry, dead rock for the new system in three months!)
Plus I got a big fuge on it!
THANKS KRISFAL!!!!! The sump is working great lots of room for my rock
I should have bought that skimmer you had in the garage also!!

 

[slomonkey]

I really would recommend buying some better test kits. I started out with the API master test kits and was getting zero nitrates, when I switched to Salifert the same tank tested > 25 nitrates. I now use the Elos brand test kits. Quality test kits are expensive but a small investment compared to losing livestock. I am real suspicious that your test kits are not giving you accurate readings since you saw no change after the fish disappeared. I recently lost a sandsifter goby (did not adjust to the tank switch) in a 400g system and saw a change in my nitrates as a result, by the time I found the carcass not much was left after the crabs, bristleworms etc were done with it but it still was enough to cause a testable amount of nitrates.

You are not going to see any quick change in parameters right after feeding. Ammonia occurs as any uneaten food rots, nitrites are a result of the ammonia being broken down by bacteria, and nitrates are a result of the breakdown of nitrites.

A tank never is truly "cycled" every change will cause some sort of mini cycle. A tank will mature over time (likely a year or more) and changes will have less impact, but changes should still occur slowly to allow the tank time to adjust. Reef tanks can test your patience, you want to have that instant reef but trying to obtain it too quickly will result in lots of loss of livestock and $$$. I added several tangs to a 130g tank within a couple of months, ended up getting ich, losing fish having to scramble to get a quarantine tank set-up . . . . Now when I get a new fish it goes in to the QT and spends a month or 2 in there before moving to the display, not only does this help prevent adding diseases to the tank and give time to teach the new fish to eat the right foods, it also keeps the addition of new fish slow.

The worm you are seeing is likely just a typical bristle worm, fireworms are pretty rare hitchhikers while the bristleworm is quite common and a beneficial clean-up critter.

I hope you have done some research on the tilefish as my understanding is that they are not good aquarium fish and typically do not survive in captivity long term-all of my books recommend leaving them in the ocean.

I hope you do not view this post as harsh, I am only trying to be helpful (as I am sure every one else is). Most of us have made many mistakes along the way and are only trying to share our experiences to help you avoid them. I am 3 years into this hobby and still feel like a newbie, there is so much to learn about!

Nope,

not viewed as harsh at all, I have been looking for the salifert kits locally but none of my LFS seem to carry them i may order online .Yeah I had done some research that suggested tilefish were good Aquarium fish ,and then looking a little deeper found quite a bit of information to the contrary, he seems happy eats like a pig and comes out to beg for food at feeding time ,he eats rite out of the feeding tube he is a pretty cool guy i hope he stays happy and healthy

thanks for the advice

peter