Anyone Dose Vodka?

[aquariumdebacle]

The concept of dosing Vodka (Everclear is better 98% pure) relates to the concept of a nitrate reactor. Although these are not commonly used anymore, they are quite effective in removing nitrates. The reason that they are not used in many applications currently is due to the lack of need. Nitrates are not really much of a problem in a properly designed and maintained reef system. The problem that is difficult to deal with is accumulated phosphates. Nitrate reduction through a reactor or other means removes nitrogen by bacterial decomposistion with the end product being nitrogen gas which is then released back into the atmosphere as a partial pressure. The minor amount of phosphates that may be taken up are not going to be converted to a form which will be exported in a gaseous or other state. It will remain in the system until it is physical removed, hopefully by a well designed protein skimmer.

A well designed nitrate reactor consists of a canister of some sort that has a very slow flow of water through the reactor. The water flow is so slow that the reactor turns into an anaerobic state due to the lack of oxygen. The addition of alcohol or sugar speeds up and enhances the bacterial reduction of nitrate. It is added in a very slow drip until the effluent from the reactor reaches zero nitrates. There should be no residual alcohol in the effluent as it tends to denature protein molecules. Any person that has had a long night of denaturing protein molecules can attest to the fact that this is not good.

 

[MikeS]

The concept of dosing Vodka (Everclear is better 98% pure) relates to the concept of a nitrate reactor.

So you are saying the alcohol somehow converts nitrate into a more "useable" form for the bacteria? Could you please elaborate on the mechanics of this process?

MikeS

 

[aquariumdebacle]

The bacteria "eat" the alcohol. Sugar molecules are made from carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen. During the photosynthesis process which is a reductive process in the oxidation-reduction reaction the carbon atoms are drawn from the atmoshere. The other reuductive process is carried out by chemosynthesis from chemotrophic bacteria. In the nitrate reactor photosynthesis is prevented by opaque walls. The carbon needs to be supplied in sufficient quantities to keep the bacteria population high enough to eliminate the nitrate from the effluent.

 

[acrylic_300]

Thank You, I just acquired a 20 year old filtration system with a nitrate chamber (two tightly packed cylinders) that exits through a small hole into the skimmer. It houses a drip bottle where the water trickles in and I could not figure out what ingrediant to put in it. So will the nitrate reactor work without the alchohol if you wait long enough? My tanks been set up for 2 months and the nitrates are slowly starting to drop. Maybe I will try some EverClear to speed it up

 

[piercho]

My understanding of dosing organic C (acetic acid, sugar, etc) is identical to what Dan just said above. There was a discussion on this a few years back related to spiking limewater with vinegar. The acidity of the acetic acid (vinegar) allows more CaOH to go into solution. When dosed to the tank the rapid consumption of organic C has a product of OH-, keeping pH lower. Consumption of the C by denitrifiers also causes consumption of NO3 (or other nutrient N) in the process. All sounds good until you consider that no P is being taken up directly. There will be some P taken up as the bacteria grow/multiply but in what ratio to N? Are you lowering the N, making P even less likely to be taken up by production, and in effect creating a P-bomb that you will have to deal with months or years later?

Control of nutrient N is not a problem anymore for most people fairly adept at keeping a reef tank, IMO. But accumulation and cycling of P can be a problem as tanks progress. I don't see how adding organic C drives substantial uptake of P. If it does I'd like to see a chemical explanation of how it occurs.

An old AF article where Bingham discusses some results of adding acetic: Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping. Same anecdotal observations discussed here that are touted when adding alchohol: hair algae goes away, increased skimmer output, etc. IMO, these are short term effects. What happened with this tank 6 mos or 6 years down the road???

 

[ldrhawke]

I do.......it works great. The only problem I have is getting the fish to the AA meetings twice a week.

 

[ldrhawke]

Let me add to my serious and whimsical comment above that was made only to develop interest. Obviously a member took affront to and ran to give me a negative post response. I've been dosing Vodka for over a year, and I am sure the only one posting with real experience doing it.

As with any additive, Vodka dosing can be easily misapplied and be a disaster, as has been described in some responses. I can also show you similar failures with every method for exporting or biologically treating waste in reef keeping; be it DSB, BB, Plenums, Fuges, Zeo, Phos removal medias,etc. It does not mean they don't work. For every failure I can show you someone that has succeeded.

I have read dozens of accounts of success and failure in using Vodka, with conventional tank addition methods. Most of the failures were because a user applied ten times too much, had no idea of how much to dose, and/or had no idea of what to look for as indicators to increase, reduce or stop dosing.

Nitrates are easy to export, but phosphate will slowy build and cause problems, since they get deposited in substrate and in the live rock.

I don't add Vodka to simply increase bacteria production. I use Vodka to build bacteria biomass in a manner that allows me to concentrate the biomass to make it easier export nitrates and phosphates on demand. Simply coating everything in the tank with a layer of bacteria can be dangerous. If biomass on the rocks and substrate does not get into the water column so it can be skimmed, it is simply redeposit into the tank as the bacteria dies. My method reduces the risk of phosphates being dissolved back into the system as the bacteria dies.

The short version of my method....

At the top of my recirculation tank I built a 3" deep rectangular tray with two large holes on the bottom. Two coarse nylon bag filter set in these holes. Into the bags I add a handful of filter floss. All of my tank overflow is directed through the bag filters. As the bag filter begin to clog with waste, the water rises a couple of inches and over flows the tray into the recirculation tank.

My tank has periodic heavy recirculation and little waste ever collects on the bottom. The floss always has detrius and uneated food in it, so I always have nitrogen and phosphate available in the filter to limit the possiblity of the bacteria growth becoming N or P limited. If I am not using it in conjunction with Vodka dozing the bags and floss are emptied daily so they do not become a nitrate factory. It is a two minute job....10 minutes in the morning with a cup of coffee.

Before I go to bed, I only dose 1/2 ml of Vodka / 25 G of tank capacity but it is directly into the filter tray...not into the tank. I also dose an amino acid and dry phytoplankton mix with the Vodka to enrich the bacteria. Within two hours you can see the bags develop bacteria slime on the outside.

If my tank has excess nutrients, the floss inside the bag filter will clog and cause the water flowing into the tray to start over flowing within 6 to 8 hours. The outside of the bag looks like Santa's beard from the bacteria slime. When I am dosing Vodka I do not let the bags go more than 12 hours without being emptied, otherwise the bacteria slime starts breaking down and reentering the water column.

The over flow indicates to me the bag is loaded with a nitrogen and phosphate laden bacteria biomass. In the morning I toss the floss in the garbage....the most positive export I can think of. The floss is like picking up a hand full of snot or watery jello it is so filled with bacteria. My skimmer is working over time while I'm dosing Vodka.

If the tray doesn't over flow within 8 hours from the build up of biomass, I stop dosing Vodka for a week, and then start over again. The reduced bacteria grwoth indicates to me P and N are reduced enough. It maintains enough nutrients to keep softies and reduces them enough to keep SPS. The mandrin, tangs, etc; are all fat.

While I am dosing Vodka I don't feed the tank. Although bacteria build up in ther tank is reduced, if you look closely you can see that there is plenty of white bacteria film on all the surfaces and in the water column for the fish and coral to feed on. The fish love the white bacteria film and nibble on it all day.

Neither excess nitrates or phosphates, nor available coral food are an issue in my system. The tank is bare bottom. I can start and stop the system with out adverse effects. As I said, it works for me. I am not worried about my tank suddenly flipping from uncontrolled phosphate release, if for any reason pH or salinity changes.

A lot of the negative comments about adding any external carbon source are correct and should be heeded. It is easy to over dose and is the primary reason failures have occurred. It is why I mentioned it is important to have a high degree of control and patience, like the methods used in apply the ZEO process.

My recommended Vodka dosing is much lower than most have prescribed in using alcohol in the past and much closer to how the ZEO process is applied. Your comments on producing bacteria and then simply allowing the bacteria to die is exactly why I say to remove the bacteria laden floss after 8 hours and don't simply shake it to break it loose and allow the skimmer to do.

Most everyone acknowledges that phosphates, in some form, does slowly saturate DSB and even live rock (reason for cooking live rock) in all reef tanks. Using only conventional process only, and not also keeping up with phosphate removal, is also walking a tightrope. The potential for phosphate being slowly or even suddenly released; caused a temperture,pH, or DSB becoming unbalanced, is also a very real danger. In my mind the question is, not will it happen, but when will it happen. To address it you can go bare bottom and every couple of years cook all your live rock, but I'm hoping to find a better answer.

I believe adding a clean carbon source properly administered can help keep phosphates under control. I'm hoping the increased bacteria film that develops on the live rock helps to slowly extract phosphate or at least keeps them from becoming an unwanted source of increase nutrient release. The success of the ZEO process by many advocates demonstrates carbon addition and increased bacteria extraction has merit in maintaining a low nutrient algae free tank.

At this point it works for me. My tank is algae fee and I only clean the glass once a week. Unlike the ZEO process, I have no commercial interests in the Vodka or filter floss business. I'm only trying to stimulate thought and advance the hobby.

 

[tasos]

Craig Bingman suggests that CO2 with kalkwasser will increase the calcium input to the system.Doesn't the CaCO3 that forms be a threat of begining precipitation though marine snowing effect?