Anyone Dose Vodka?

[NaH2O]

I'm trying to get a handle on the Vodka dosing method, so if you dose, please share your experiences. I think I understand the basic concept to grow a population of bacteria that will then utlilize excess N and P. The bacteria then is skimmed out, so it's a form of nutrient export. Let me know if I have the basic concept incorrect or I've left something out. Now, my question is based on the exportation of bacteria. Aren't the majority of bacterias going to be associated with surfaces in biofilms? So, would they be in the water column to skim out? How strict do you have to be on the dosing regime, in order to maintain the increased bacterial population, so it doesn't die off and release those nutrients back?

 

[scottw]

There is a lady I know that use to run Vodka, I will see if she will come on here and help you out some, she ran it for a while I am not sure why she stopped she said it worked well for her. But it was hard to dial in for her at the start.

 

[wrightme43]

I used to dose vodka, but then I kept losing things, houses, cars, jobs, wives, friends. Had to take a skip on it. LOL Steve

 

[NaH2O]

LOL, Steve :lol:! I thought I remembered reading a post that you can also dose vinegar or sugar and get the same results. Not sure about the chemistry on that though.

 

[spongebob lover]

I don't know if i'm understanding this the right way or may be my spanish and english are getting mixed up again, but did you say vodka like the alcohol drink or is this some kind of med that has vodka as a name ?
and if is it the alcohol drink, how can that help the tank or what does it do to the tank i mean aside from getting everyone drunk in there ?
may be i should start sharing with my fishes and have the happy hour with them :lol:

 

[scottw]

I don't know if i'm understanding this the right way or may be my spanish and english are getting mixed up again, but did you say vodka like the alcohol drink or is this some kind of med that has vodka as a name ?
and if is it the alcohol drink, how can that help the tank or what does it do to the tank i mean aside from getting everyone drunk in there ?
may be i should start sharing with my fishes and have the happy hour with them :lol:

You got it. The kind you get drunk off of

 

[spongebob lover]

lol ok :lol: !!
First i read a thread about putting blood on tanks to make the corals look beautiful and now Vodka for dosing tanks .. whats next ?

 

[NaH2O]

First i read a thread about putting blood on tanks to make the corals look beautiful and now Vodka for dosing tanks .. whats next ?

Hmmm....someone drunk on Vodka, dripping an IV into the tank?? :lol: just kidding of course.

Gabriela - the concept I believe is to build up a higher population of bacteria inorder to aid in the removal of N and P in our tanks. Then, through skimming the bacteria get removed, which is then exporting the N and P. Less nutrients, less algae I suppose. I think I have the general concept down, but I'm hoping somoeone can elaborate a bit on it or correct my misunderstandings. I'm just not following how the bacteria get to the skimmer for removal. I'm sure there are some present in the water column, but how much in comparison to what is in biofilms on surfaces? Also, I imagine the tank would have to be weaned off something like this, as a big bacterial die off would not be a good thing.

 

[Katchupoy]

For those people who are at lost or want some more detailed report other than what Nikki said. Here is the link....
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288714&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

I dont mean to divert people to other forum but just a background...

Anyway, we are asking people here about their experiences...

But if you dont want to read... and want to make it as simple as possible.... Just read what Nikki said.

 

[rhidien]

Nikki.. personally I have no experience with dosing vodka, but remembered reading this article a while back... http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/eb/feature/index.htm

 

[MikeS]

IMO, based on what I've read about it over the past year or so, I think it's somewhat of a flawed concept, with an unfavorable enough overall risk vs. benefit ratio to not warrent using it.

Let's start with the vodka itself. It's not pure alcohol, only about 40% on average, there are many other things in there, like sugars, carbohydrates, ect. All of which will be an addtional nutrient load on the tank. While some of this load will undoubtedly be consumed by "good" organisims, the rest could become fuel for less desireable microorganisims in the tank. Also, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't the alcohol itself tend to kill bacteria? I sort of understand the premise for using it, as the carbon in it fuels bacteria, but wouldn't the complex alcohol molecule itself be antiseptic in nature in the tank? Somebody with a better understanding of biochemistry than myself is going to have to break that particular point down for me... In addition, I'd suspect enough free carbon is present in most tanks at any given time to easily support adequate bacterial populations...

Second...let's look at the precieved benefits of elevating these bacterial levels in the tank. As Borneman and others have stated, there really isn't any concrete evidence out there that conclusively state nitrate's overall effect on corals, either positive or negative. The levels of nitrate commonly encountered in the average reef tank I suspect are likely of no negative concern. To the average reefkeeper, the focus then shifts from maintaining a healthy environment for corals to maintainging an envionment low enough in nutrients to keep problem algae at a minimum. Obvioulsy a desireable goal in the hobby, as none of us likes to show off a tank full of algae. but not a goal that is necessarily directly tied into the overall health of the coral.

We are constantly doing things to our tanks that affect bacterial populations. Skimming, water changes, feeding, introduction of reducers like macroalgae, added livestock, ect...all these things ultimately impact the bacteria populations in the tank. This, IMO, obvioulsy creates an inherintly unstable bacterial population, one that is in a constant state of flux due to our input. (I think that we are able to keep this flux in a range that creates a livable environment by not making sudden or drastic changes.) By tampering with these poputions further by using something like vodka, I feel you are doing nothing more than adding yet another varible to an already unstable situation. Overdo it, or mess it up, and you may have a flux on your hands you simply can't control.

Bottom line, I fail to see where the benefits of dosing vodka outweigh the potental risks...

MikeS

 

[Forestal]

very nice post mike..

i agree, if you are adding to feed bacteria, why not just add sugar, same thing, but until it has a study well done backing it(difficult to do in this hobby) and not just anecdotal evidence i am holding off

 

[Boomer]

I just goe done doszing with some Vodka and that is wyh tsie==thung won;t tyowem right

 

[Boomer]

wonm;t the fish get drink on the voga

 

[LakeEd]

There that Vodka goes again, never makin it out of the glass into a tank, just passes the lips! *grinz*

 

[sryder]

i work in the chemical industry and we have a water treatment plant on site. the water treatment facility uses bacteria to break down chemicals in the water. when the bugs eat alchohol they reproduce at an enormous rate. if you give them too much they overpopulate. nikki is right in the fact, that you then end up with an enormous die off for lack of food. this disrupts the entire treatment facility and then you have to repopulate the pools. i would think that in an aquarium this would be devistating. i would think in the aquarium your bacterial populations are consistent with the bioload of your tank. i was always under the impression that you should add fish especially slow so that your bioload can grow to its nutrient source without overloading it. I also know that if phenols are introduced the bugs wont eat anything else and the water will not be cleaned by the bugs other then for the phenol. would the bugs in our tanks like the alchohol better then ammonia or nitrates? would they populate only to the food source(vodka)? would the populations then die off once the food source is removed?

 

[NaH2O]

Let's start with the vodka itself. It's not pure alcohol, only about 40% on average, there are many other things in there, like sugars, carbohydrates, ect. All of which will be an addtional nutrient load on the tank. While some of this load will undoubtedly be consumed by "good" organisims, the rest could become fuel for less desireable microorganisims in the tank. Also, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't the alcohol itself tend to kill bacteria? I sort of understand the premise for using it, as the carbon in it fuels bacteria, but wouldn't the complex alcohol molecule itself be antiseptic in nature in the tank? Somebody with a better understanding of biochemistry than myself is going to have to break that particular point down for me... In addition, I'd suspect enough free carbon is present in most tanks at any given time to easily support adequate bacterial populations...

Mike - hopefully when Boomer is over his Vodka induced hangover , he can explain the chemistry behind it? (one for you.....one for the tank). I am also thinking of alcohol's ability to kill bacteria - interesting point. Think about when you get a shot....they rub the site of injection with alcohol to clean the area. However, I am unsure as to what effect 40% alcohol would have.

would the bugs in our tanks like the alchohol better then ammonia or nitrates? would they populate only to the food source(vodka)?

I believe the bacteria are interested in the carbon of Vodka. Which is why sugar or vinegar could also be used to accomplish the same (??). Nitrogen is also important, but I am unsure as to which is more desireable. It might be a "how much thing". The bacteria use the carbon, and when it is gone, then the N and P get used? Perhaps Boomer or mojoreef could elaborate on this, too.

 

[mojoreef]

The concept is kind of funny actually. In a mature reef or aquarium the poppulations of the different bacterial strains balance to the amount of food that they consume. When a tank is first cycling we add dead things (either a dead shrimp or LR with dead stuff in it) So a mass introduction of a food source so that the bacterial population explodes to meet the input. After that initcal cycle thier is always a big die off of bacteria as the population reduces to meet what would be the standard food input for it. The result is all the organics tied up in the bacteria are released and the person goes through an algae cycle (algae goes after the food put out by the bacteria death) . Anyway at some time in the early life of our tanks the bacteria/algae populations become more static. As is the bacteria population matches the food input with out the large blooms in bacteria population or what we tend to call a mature tank.
So now come the concept of dosing a carbon soure, in this case vodka. What folks do is dose the vodka, the extra carbon in the tank cuases another bacterial bloom in population. The concept being is that if you have a larger population of bacteria you will have more bacteria to do the job of nitrification, because of thier population enlargment it would create more of thier biproduct which in turn would increase the population of the bacteria behind them, denitrifing. So the bottom line is what folks are trying to do is to create and artifical population which it turn will give the tank more reduction power.
Problems: It would be almost inpossible to manually keep this population static. As in over populate and keep that colony in tacked with no excessive loss to the population. Miss once of the perfect dose and you allow all the extra bacteria to die, when they do they release (make inorganic) all of the nutrients they have bound in thier matrix. The result is algae being johny on the spot and taking up the nutrient and having a bloom in your tank.
Second problem is as Mikes says, vodka is only 40% so when you dose with it you are getting 60% of that mix being something else. Ie carbs, sugars and so on. Or as we like to call algae food??

Biological filtration is not that effective to begin with, what folks are trying to do is to make up for that shortfall by hyperizing the bacterial component of the filtration. Can be done but not with out the pitfalls or riding the edge.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

So the bottom line is what folks are trying to do is to create and artifical population which it turn will give the tank more reduction power.
Problems: It would be almost inpossible to manually keep this population static.

My point exactly....we do so much in our tanks that cause bacterial flux, this would be yet another varible in an already unstable equation....

I'd still like to know how the alchohol is "de-toxified" so to speak...is there a chemical reaction that takes place, or is the average dose small enough that bacterial populations are not negatively impacted?

MikeS

 

[invincible569]

good post Mojo! thats exactly right on target!