Blackout in Tanks.

[warforged]

I've been reading about doing blackouts in tanks. Mostly related to Cyano and Algae problems.

I was wondering from those who have done blackouts for those purposes. How were your results with the symptoms?

I wanted to try this method out if i get another cyano problem in my future.

1. 25% water change suck out cyano or algae.
2. Add carbon/Run new Phosban
3. Blackout my tank for a week.

I was reading this method from another site and the guy swears up and down it worked for his tank and his friends tank.

I prefer RF and its community for information. You all are pretty accurate and helpful.

Are there other benefits to doing blackouts occasionally also?

 

[returnofsid]

If you have corals, a week will be too long. Also, I don't think light or lack thereof, will effect Cyano. Cyano is a bacteria that isn't as light dependent as algae. Increased flow is the best way to battle cyano.

No lights is very effective against diatom algae.

 

[warforged]

So the only benefit is really towards algae and specifically Diatom.

I just wondered what other benefits there could be. Knowing the sea isnt always sunny ...storms roll in and things like that..cloudy days. I just wondered what benefits does it have to imitate those off days.

 

[soyadrink]

There is a method of just turning your lights of during the day for an hour. It takes longer for algae to restart their photosynthesis cycle than corals which slows down the growth of the algae. this won't work for against a lot of algae but it will slow it down

 

[warforged]

Cool I didnt know that about the photosynthesis cycle differences.

I bit off topic... Diatoms vs Cyano descriptions on the web and small pics have me baffled.

They look so similar. How can one tell if you have Diatoms or Cyano on a Rock for instance?

 

[DonW]

Cool I didnt know that about the photosynthesis cycle differences.

I bit off topic... Diatoms vs Cyano descriptions on the web and small pics have me baffled.

They look so similar. How can one tell if you have Diatoms or Cyano on a Rock for instance?

Turning the lights off for an hour is not going to stop or disturb the calvin cycle. As long as the light cycle has built up enough ATP the dark cycle is going to happen. You would have to switch them off and on frequently preventing the buid up of ATP and this would effect the zoanthelle in the corals the same as it would the algae. The dark cycle is not just simply turning off the lights.

You can pretty much count on diatoms being brown sort of dusty and cyano being a reddish mat.

Don

 

[warforged]

Do you guys know of or have any clear good pictures of Diatoms and Cyano in early stages to help me ID the differences?

One time I thought I had redslime and treated the water... it didnt die...it just grew...then suddenly just disappeared over time as I did weekly water changes... i suspect it was Diatoms...

Ive seen some tiny pics of Diatoms on rocks and it looks very close to cyano when it first shows in a tank...

Also that fuge problem you helped me with Don...I think wasn't cyano at all...I watched my turbo snail the other day chomp on the cyano like stuff that was ontop of regular algae... its now gone ..but I began to wonder if I have been mis identifying Cyano and Diatoms in the past.

 

[DonW]

Do you guys know of or have any clear good pictures of Diatoms and Cyano in early stages to help me ID the differences?

One time I thought I had redslime and treated the water... it didnt die...it just grew...then suddenly just disappeared over time as I did weekly water changes... i suspect it was Diatoms...

Ive seen some tiny pics of Diatoms on rocks and it looks very close to cyano when it first shows in a tank...

Also that fuge problem you helped me with Don...I think wasn't cyano at all...I watched my turbo snail the other day chomp on the cyano like stuff that was ontop of regular algae... its now gone ..but I began to wonder if I have been mis identifying Cyano and Diatoms in the past.

Click on the link in my sig line. The bottom Rh photo, the brown tint is diatoms.

Don

 

[warforged]

Ok I will have to from home... work pc has that network security stuff all over it... blocks many photos and sites.

I will check back on this thread tonight. Thanks again DonW and the rest of you for helping learn things here.

 

[returnofsid]

Diatom looks like someone sprinkled gold dust all over your sand. Cyanobacteria is a red slime layer. It's much thicker than diatom and will even lift off the sand bed if flow gets under it. It is more "sheet" like.

 

[krisfal]

I had the same issue, trying to treat cyano when it was Diatoms (no amount of flow made a difference).

Here is the site I found that helped me figure out it was Diatoms

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/

Click on info links in left hand menu then on next menu click Hitchhikers and on next screen scroll down and click on Algae (in body of website)

 

[mmn_usn]

I did the black out thing about 2 yrs ago on my tank... I didn't do it for the algea but to upgrade the lights and put a new top on the tank.

55g with HOB overflow filter(tetra whisper 60) and Mag 350 running carbon. CC sand bed and about 50lbs of rock. 4 fish at the time and multiple corals(favia, frogspawn, zoas, alevapora, devils hand leather)

I had the lights off for almost 4 days. The only light getting into the tank was from the 2 60W bulbs on the ceiling in the middle of the room. I do not do water changes. During the dark time I had to add a heater to the tank to ensure the temp stayed above 70 at night. I didn't notice a change in the red algea(Cyano) and I have never seen a diatom bloom in my tank( not saying that it hasn't happened... just haven't seen it) I normall have a problem with the green film algea. For the 4 days of no light I did notice a reduction in the film on the glass. The corals came back to normal in about 3 days but had me pretty worried that they wouldn't recover. On day 2 with the new hood they actually shrivelled more than they did with the lights out. The algea growth was stunted for over a month... I didn't keep a detailed log but I am pretty sure that the algea didn't come back for 3-4 months.. I was back underway and when I came home from sea it was green again..(the wife likes to overfeed...)

 

[warforged]

Thanks for the feedback on the blackouts. I only did a 24 hour black out...and then I am putting lights on half the normal time 4 hours... Just to see what happens.

It seems its disappeared entirely on my two rocks... and thanks to the link above.

I can see that Diatoms and Cyano are very very similar in early stages...The only differences I am seeing is that Diatoms are more dark..thick.

I am taking away from that article picture of hitch hiking sections info, Cyano is more transparent and thin... for those color blind to light reds like pinks like me I cant depend on color tones visually. It seems I have had to deal with a diatom boom long ago...and didnt realize that was it.

Great help guys.. I am going to favorite that link...it's got a lot of info on subjects worth reading at home.

 

[krisfal]

Thanks for the feedback on the blackouts. I only did a 24 hour black out...and then I am putting lights on half the normal time 4 hours... Just to see what happens.

It seems its disappeared entirely on my two rocks... and thanks to the link above.

I can see that Diatoms and Cyano are very very similar in early stages...The only differences I am seeing is that Diatoms are more dark..thick.

I am taking away from that article picture of hitch hiking sections info, Cyano is more transparent and thin... for those color blind to light reds like pinks like me I cant depend on color tones visually. It seems I have had to deal with a diatom boom long ago...and didnt realize that was it.

Great help guys.. I am going to favorite that link...it's got a lot of info on subjects worth reading at home.

IME, diatoms are more fuzzy while cyano is more slimey looking. But you are correct they are very similiar looking. In the early stages Diatoms appear like a gold dusting on the rock and sand but as it progresses it becomes a dark red mat with bubbles and easily confused with Cyano. Like I said before I was treating it like cyano, making sure my flow was adequate throughout the tank, but it was growing right in front of my closed loop nozzles which are pushing 1000+ gph.

I followed the link I provided about a month ago when it was given for a different issue and then spent some time looking around the web-site and when I found the section on hitchhikers and algae it was an aha moment for me. I finally understood why following all the advice for getting rid of cyano was not working for me.

 

[DonW]

Diatoms dont ususally build up to the state of forming a mat like cyano with high flow. Usually only happens where there is little to no water movement. Diatoms also die off at night so it takes a pretty nasty tank to get them to form a mat. If your seeing a brown / tan mat with respiration bubbles then it may likely be dinoflagellates.

Don

 

[returnofsid]

I would agree with Don. I've never seen Diatoms as anything other than a fine dusting. Diatoms are very normal in new tanks or if substrate is changed out or seriously stirred up. I've also never seen Diatoms form a mat or have bubbles.

If it's forming a slimy or thick mat, I'd say it's either Cyano or, as Don mentioned Dinoflagellates. Cyano has a very slimy or greasy look and feel to it. It's common to have to form strong, rubbery sheets that lift up off the substrate slightly. Even when it's siphoned out, it'll lift up the entire mat and the mat holds together fairly well.

 

[krisfal]

Diatoms dont ususally build up to the state of forming a mat like cyano with high flow. Usually only happens where there is little to no water movement. Diatoms also die off at night so it takes a pretty nasty tank to get them to form a mat. If your seeing a brown / tan mat with respiration bubbles then it may likely be dinoflagellates.

Don

So after I read this I went and did a little research on dinos and found this article http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php from reefkeeping magazine that had this picture( Edit: removed picture as it errored) (though the article did state can be brown), it also described it as a slimy/snotty looking growth, mine is definately not slimy or snotty, rather it is fuzzy/furry looking.


However, the problem I am fighting looks exactly like the photo of Diatoms I found on the www.chucksaddiction.com. Unfortunately that website will not let me copy the picture, but it is under hitchhiker: algea.

I will admit my tank was dirty from underskimming, but I have bought a skimmer that can handle my tank and am working hard to get the tank clean. Unfortunately, whatever the algea/bacteria problem is I am battling it does not siphon/blow off of the rocks easily. I end up scrubbing with a brush with one hand while trying to siphon it up with the other hand. I have made great progress over the last couple of weeks. But every little spot I miss quickly start producing the bubbles again. It does die back overnight and return in the morning. During the summer I did turn my lights off due to heat on the hottest days, and ran them for shorter photoperiods to help control heat and the periods of blackout seemed to have no affect as it grew back soon as the lights were back on.

Not specifically looking for advice here because I do a lot of research and I understand that whatever the ID the treatment is often along the same lines, good nutrient export, removing the algea you can, good flow and good maintenance. All the things I am working on in a practicle method that I can maintain long term. I just wanted to point out just because it is red and bubbly does not necessarily mean it is cyano. I thought what I had was cyano and focused solely on flow and keeping detrius in suspension and my problem actually got worse. I transferred the problem from my old set up to the new, even though I tried hard not to.

Thanks Don for pointing out other possibilities, I will definately look into it further when I have time.

 

[DonW]

Ya it can be difficult to diagnose these sort of things via the internet. Everyone seems to have a different discription. But it usually just boils down to nutrician. With diatoms you should notice a big die off every morning when the lights come on and its back when you get home from work

Don

 

[krisfal]

Ya it can be difficult to diagnose these sort of things via the internet. Everyone seems to have a different discription. But it usually just boils down to nutrician. With diatoms you should notice a big die off every morning when the lights come on and its back when you get home from work

Don

Yeah it is exactly as you describe in the last sentence.

But whatever it is my husband has declared me the queen of growing it:evil:.

I think I am on the downhill side of battling it, tank is looking a lot better this week after just 2 weeks with the H&S skimmer, the first week I was getting a full collection cup daily. I like to feed my fish well (I do not feel I overfeed, just making sure their nutritional needs are met with multiple daily feedings of quality food, but 4 large fish make for a lot of fish poop) and just need to get my nutrient export up to match it. I have been following your replies on the vodka dosing closely (and am so glad you stated not to try if you have diatoms, so I did not make that mistake) I have also been doing a lot of additional research on the topic and it is something I will consider once I have my tank in good condition, because I refuse to malnourish my fish in order to have a pretty tank.

 

[warforged]

Ya it can be difficult to diagnose these sort of things via the internet. Everyone seems to have a different discription. But it usually just boils down to nutrician. With diatoms you should notice a big die off every morning when the lights come on and its back when you get home from work

Don

Holy Cow! That is exactly what happened to me when I first set up the 55 gallon.

I Saw actual sheets on my sandbed... by morning it was nearly gone...by the time I came home its like my sand had blankets on it...I was This kept going on for a few days ...though I sucked off the blanket it came back the next day.... I resolved this later but Still...it explains a lot.